I Don't Understand Quantum Physics (2018)
southampton.ac.uk107 points by rramadass 3 hours ago
107 points by rramadass 3 hours ago
Saying I don't understand Quantum Mechanics is like saying, "I don't understand how attention/transformers explain the human brain."
It doesn't. It's model. All models are wrong (including quantum mechanics and attention) but some are useful. You understand the domain of the model, the problems it can solve, the math behind the models and use the model to make predictions. If you are competent at linear algebra and functional analysis, you can do quantum mechanics.
If you make the error of believing that quantum mechanics is ontological god's honest truth of nature, you will end up with blunders like using it to explain consciousness like Prof Penrose. His math was impeccable, but he was making a category error.
I disagree. The human brain is difficult to understand due to the extreme complexity. Quantum mechanics is weird even for simple arrangements of a few building blocks such as the double-slit experiment or Bell tests.
Quantum physics is a theory, as in "as far as we can tell, this is an exact mathematical description of the world".
Models are simplifications/approximations made on purpose, as in "I know this is wrong on some level, but it's close enough for my use case", or "this makes the maths solvable".
This is an important distinction. Quantum mechanics as a framework is the correct description of reality as far as we can measure (excluding some loopholes like superdeterminism). This is as close to the foundation or "god" or whatever you want to call it as it gets. If you look at specific quantum model descriptions (like the Schrödinger equation), we know they are not complete. Even relativistically correct Dirac equation is still not the full picture, because we don't fully understand how gravity fits into this on short length scales. But the current principles like Bell's theorem exist independently with all their implications on our reality and they will not go away, no matter what else we discover at the bottom.
>>>Quantum physics is a theory, as in "as far as we can tell, this is an exact mathematical description of the world".
... which "we think" is functioning that way not to mention that theory itself might be wrong and be replaced as most of the supporters of quantum theory doesn't seem to look on it as something that explain mechanics of it, but rather how magic of "unexplainable" quantum mechanics works.
Eh I would disagree on such a sharp distinction. Both quantum mechanics and general relativity are theories, and we know that both of them are not accurate descriptions at all scales.
Heck your descriptions of a model is also what we would call an effective theory (i.e. a description valid for a specific range of parameters/scale).
I don't think there's a commonly agreed difference between model and theory and I sure have heard many physicists use them interchangeably when it suits them (and I'm guilty of it myself). Perhaps theory feels 'wider', as in quantum theory encompasses models for many quantum systems, but that's as far as I'd go.
It all reminds me of my favorite Asimov quote:
> [...] when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.
> It doesn't. It's model. All models are wrong (including quantum mechanics and attention) but some are useful.
Sure, but what if you don’t understand the model?
There are only a few things that I think are exactly correct in physics, and quantum mechanics is one of them, alongside Relativity.
Quantum mechanics is a framework for how theories are built, not a specific theory, and it's really all or nothing. There's not much between the quantum and classical ways of viewing the world.
Both cannot be “exactly correct” at the same time. And most likely, neither are.
Indeed. The classical view is wrong, and the quantum view is correct.
But it just turns out that there's a limit in which the quantum world looks approximately classical.
How strange to see a familiar name here! I wasn't his PhD student but worked in the same department as Douglas Ross, and can only say that he was warm, extremely intelligent, with a very strong natural intuition about high energy physics, enjoyed puzzles, and wouldn't shy away from quizzing people giving talks. I remember he had a back and forth with a visiting speaker for about 20 minutes on some minutia!
I don't have much to add on the article itself except that it's almost certainly worth reading.
Somewhat related: a book that really helped me is Picturing Quantum Processes by Bob Coecke. It's a visual representation of quantum processes, which really helped me understand the concept
I caution against taking Coecke seriously. He takes a very niche and eclectic approach to understanding quantum circuits. You will look like a crank if you approach a physicist with that framework. I recommend Griffiths or Sakurai as good intro.
I started to read from "3.1 The Ultraviolet Catastrophe" and this sentence
"The number of different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, N(λ)dλ, with wavelengths in a small interval between λ and λ + dλ, (dλ means a small interval in wavelength) can be shown to be proportional to 1/λ⁴."
doesn't make sense. It should not talk about a number of wavelengths, but the number of allowed standing-wave modes (number of eigenmodes that a mathematical solution to the electric field in the relevant situation has) in the small wavelength interval.
This piece looks great, adding to my ever-growing "to read" collection on Zotero.
If anyone is interested in self-studying quantum physics, QFT for the Gifted Amateur [1] is very well regarded.
Second this book, but you need a source before this to study QP successfully. This requires a lot of UG maths and physics knowledge that I think most would not have.
See also, Atomic Physics for Everyone: An Introduction to Atomic Physics, Quantum Mechanics, and Precision Spectroscopy with No College-Level Prerequisites. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46961595
That pre-determined value idea is exactly local hidden variables, and Bell's inequality rules it out, Aspect's 1982 CHSH experiment measured the violation.
To be precise, Bell's inequality rules out a local hidden variable theory. Pilot wave theories/Bohmian mechanics is an attempt to describe a nonlocal hidden variable theory of quantum mechanics.
To be even more precise, it rules out hidden variable theories that satisfy Bell locality, i.e. the assumptions that the theorem makes.
Superdeterminism and retrocausality both allow for local hidden variables - it’s just that they don’t satisfy Bell’s assumptions.
it doesn't if you assume superdeterminism
I don't understand the superdeterminism idea. Wasn’t that already the classical/Newtonian view - that everything was predetermined, a universe of billiard balls following their destiny exactly?
Newtonian is just plain determinism. One thing causes another, but does not imply things are fixed in any particular way.
Superdeterminism implies that things are fixed in advance in such a way that the things we "choose" to measure always looks as if there are no local hidden variables (e.g. Bell's inequality) even though there are.
In a podcast, Alain Aspect (Nobel Prize winner) explained that he does use the power of visualization and his imagination to generate new ideas, but that he always needs to check them with actual calculations because no mental picture can be an accurate representation of quantum physics.
I take issue with "understand". I agree QM can not be understood in terms of everyday experience. One must build experience, language and proper metaphor for the understanding. For example, in the intro Ross uses the example of explaining a waterfall to someone who never saw it. He says that can be done but he relies on implicitly the listener knowing what people on Earth may take for granted. That understanding of a waterfall can only happen if the listener already has some understanding of fluid flow and gravity. We do, but say a newly found alien friend from a dry environment that had never experienced fluid flow would not have the mental building blocks to understand it. Feynman gave a famous interview where he said, essentially, "no, I can't explain it to you because you are too ignorant" (he said it more politely). Going the other direction, Physics steeped enough in quantum theory do understand QM enough to have meaningful discussions free (at times) of rigorous math. They do this because they have a shared language, vocabulary, metaphor. Sure, they must rely on math and experiment to ground that understanding in truth but I guarantee they do not communicate understanding (solely) in math and measurement data.
Why can AI generate pictures of waterfalls if it has never lived on Earth?
We understand quantum mechanics well enough to build machines that depend almost entirely on quantum principles.
It sounds all superior and mysterious to quote Feynman here, but the fact is many people absolutely do understand quantum mechanics.
>It sounds all superior and mysterious to quote Feynman here,
It isn't about being superior, mysterious, or clever. The following "nobody understands" type of quips and thought experiments are different ways of saying our intuitions don't help us understand it :
- "God does not play dice with the universe.", Albert Einstein
- "Shut up and calculate", N. David Mermin
- "Schrödinger's cat" being both alive and dead
- various interpretations/analogies explaining quantum physics leading to absurdities or contradictions
Yes, humanity has harnessed quantum mechanics with mathematic frameworks and repeatable experiments to make useful things... but that's a different layer of "understanding" than the deeper levels in the above quotes.
"Nobody understands what gravity is." ... Wait, if nobody "understands" gravity, how did we send people to the moon?!?
Because those are different usages of the word "understand".
"Understand" means "Have a reasonable metaphor for."
Our monkey minds evolved to throw rocks at birds, and our metaphors are based on concepts like position, velocity, and temperature. We added first-level abstractions like energy and cause-and-effect, then built higher level abstractions on those basic concepts.
QM clearly doesn't work like that. It's probabilistic, possibly non-local, possibly subjective, possibly a holographic projection of some underlying reality that is nothing like this one, and its relationship with causality is slippery.
We have a mathematical UI for it, but that's not at all the same thing as understanding the machinery on the other side of the UI.
Forgive my ignorance but which machines depend almost entirely on quantum principles?
The processor of the computer you are writing your question on is using tunnelling transistors.
If one does understand quantum mechanics well enough to use it, then one also understands that there are aspects of it we do not fully understand.
You can make an identical argument with respect to classical physics, e.g. outstanding issues in fluid dynamics or statistical mechanics.
Nobody takes this to mean that classical physics is generally incomprehensible.
Can’t we say the same about LLMs? Yet interpretability of them is rough.
We can build black boxes and exploit the behavior of what we see.
But we can’t always go to deeper and deeper layers of understanding.
QM is not a black boxes we built but one could perhaps say it’s a black box that we see.
Or we understand just enough to make things and instruments that only work on (and up to) the layer that we understand.
Ancient humans could build boats 5000 years ago and expand throughout the planet, but they didn't know about water being made up of hydrogen+oxygen, or the tides being caused by the moon, etc.
Their calculations served them on the layer they operated on.
> the tides being caused by the moon
Mostly because people around the mediterranean sea didn't have to care, tides being so small there. Yet the Greek had fairly advanced models of tide schedules.
Pretty sure peoples that were experiencing bigger tides and depended on it e.g for fishing figured out the relationship with the moon pretty quickly, whatever esoteric reason they may have plastered upon it.
I loved the book QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter by Feynman as a child. Funny enough I always saw QM from a path integral PoV, a decade before I got to learn the formalism
This deserves a [pdf] in the title.
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."
- Richard Feynman
Whether this was even true in Feynman's time, it's much less true now.
With the meaning that Feynman meant it was true then and now. From QED:
>The next reason that you might think you do not understand what I am telling you is, while I am describing to you how Nature works, you won't understand why Nature works that way. But you see, nobody understands that. I can't explain why Nature behaves in this peculiar way.
I also like "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics" which is supposedly also from Feynman.
I think it's one of those famous quotes that was never said. The one I quoted was what he apparently said.
Quantum _mechanics_ cannot be understood, it is full of paradoxes. It contradicts classical EM and special relativity, among other things. A toy theory that was an important step to what came later.
Feynman's own QED is a part of QFT, but this is no longer quantum mechanics. Special relativity and quantum physics are reconciled since then. Now, we only need to reconcile GR and QFT, but this leap was so far beyond our attempts to scale it. Yet, QED/QFT/SM can be "understood" as there are fewer obvious paradoxes that plagued QM.
"IS QUANTUM PHYSICS CORRECT AND COMPLETE?" is reductive, there are more quantum denominations: Copenhagen, QBism, RQM, consistent histories, Many-worlds, Bohmian mechanics, and various spontaneous collapse people. I might've missed a few.
Situation: There are 12 major interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Quantum Bayesianism (QBism): We need to eliminate the interpretational conundrums that have beset quantum theory. A quantum state should not be thought to offer a description or representation of physical reality – instead it represents the degrees of belief an agent has about the possible outcomes of measurements.
Situation: There are 13 major interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Yes this is a particular interest of mine, the various interpretations of QM. Most physicists subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, but I still find it has philosophical quandaries. He mentioned many-worlds. Bohmian mechanics has been shown to be inadequate.
Blokhinstev's ensemble interpretation, which I like, is unattractive to many.
2 things to understand about science:
It's useful, not metaphysically real. (Hot take btw) This is called Instrumentalism. The belief that it's real is called Scientific Realism. However over and over again, science can't cover edge cases, and we find better fitting models. The Copernician revolution is a good example of this dichotomy.
2. Academia basically forces you to believe the doctrine or you fail the class. From philosophy to physics to sociology. If you read the philosopher survey, you will find trendy things being quite high. It's a religion in itself.
Bonus 3: Philosophical Pragmatism and Instrumentalism generally solves this, but is intellectually a dead end. There is a reason analytic philosophy continues despite gaping holes in linguistics (late Wittgenstein) that ruin it. But at the same time, best fits might be missing a new paradigm. I wish I could tell people to ask AI to explain Hegel to understand, but I think people need to read it themselves.
Tl;dr: quantum mechanics is the best we have. It's definitely wrong, but it's the most useful we have.
> 2. Academia basically forces you to believe the doctrine or you fail the class.
Yes, but if you can make a reliable experiment that disagree with the doctrine, it will change, even if everyone hates the idea. In particular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_experiment
Unpopular opinion I think, but I still believe the physics world was wrong to chase the Copenhagen interpretation.
The math does indeed work, and many experiments and practical uses seem to show that there is something to quantum broadly. But to throw determinism out the window and believe that quantum is fundamentally probabilistic, and that one can never really run scientific experiments because observing state collapses superposition, has always seemed asinine to me.
I could be completely wrong, but it's always seemed obvious to me that the need for probabilities in quantum is a clear indicator that something is missing in the theory. I'm never surprised when a person can't understand quantum as its described today.
It's completely counterintuitive, but that's how it works experimentally. For example:
Measure the spin of electrons in direction X (that's done with a weirdly shaped magnet). You'll get either +1 or -1 in a conveniently chosen unit system. That's already weird, you'll never measure +0.5 for example. Keep only the +1 electrons. You can measure them again and again, you'll always get +1 in the X direction.
Now measure those electrons in the Y direction, you'll also get either +1 or -1.
But now, if you measure in the X direction again, you'll get +1 or -1 with 50% probability; although before measuring in the Y direction, these electrons always had spin +1 in the X direction.
Oh I get that experiments prove out. What has always been unintuitive to me to the point of seeming wrong is that said spin is random and lives in a probability cloud that is probabilistic only until we observe it.
The math works and the experiments work, but it feels like a broken clock situation. It happens to correlate well, but the understanding and models are missing something in the actual underlying physics that, if understood, would throw the whole randomness part out the window.
It has been shown that you can keep determinism (Bohm etc), but what follows is not necessary something you'll find more intuitive or cleaner or more logical.
I haven't been sold by pilot-wave theory, adding hidden variables to attempt to get rid of randomness feels like a cheat rather that a realistic view of how reality would work.
Unrelated, but I also wish scientists properly used the term "theory".
So do the rest of us.
me neither! How does the Einstein Rosen Podosky Paradox work? can the unknown that's being collapsed not be a pre-determined value that therefore is not traveling faster than the speed of light?
>can the unknown that's being collapsed not be a pre-determined value that therefore is not traveling faster than the speed of light?
This is known as a "hidden variable theory". People will tell you that a local (things can only affect their immediate surroundings) version of the theory is impossible because it would be a violation of Bell's inequality, but there is a loophole that requires accepting the idea of "superdeterminism". This is the idea that where what measurement a scientist chooses to measure is predetermined and correlated with what the particle being measured is going to do.
So if a particle lands on a screen according to distribution p when going through a double slit, but with distribution p' when one of the slits is measured at, conventional QM says that the measurement "collapses the wave function". But a superdeterministic local hidden variable theory would imply that the choice of whether to measure at the slit or not was already set in stone at the same time that the particle "decided" which path to take to land on the screen, more or less.
If you split up an entangled pair of particles and measure them in a the same 50/50 basis simultaneously (sort of like a coin flip) at distantly removed places, the results will be individually random but perfectly correlated when compared with each other. It seems natural to assume that something here was pre-determined. i.e. There's was some kind of hidden information that we haven't found a way to measure yet. The way in which the coin-tosses were going to pan out was determined when the pair of particles were entangled.
Quantum physics makes predictions that suggest this isn't so. You can design experiments (e.g. A Bell inequality test) in which quantum physics predicts correlations that go beyond what would be possible with some hidden local information attached to the entangled particles that we just don't know about. Experiments don't prove theories to be correct. That's not how science works. However, experimental tests of Bell inequalities have pretty conclusively shown that local hidden variable theories are inadequate to explain what's going on.
Yes, it appears what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance" seems to propagate close to instantly. It's important to appreciate that you can't transmit information this way though. We can only make sense of the quantum correlations after communicating other information at classical speeds. Sometimes you see quantum entanglement devices allowing FTL communication in sci-fi, but that's pure horse hockey.
That all being said, I don't understand quantum physics either.
One of the "coping mechanisms" is to say that information cannot travel faster than light, even if entanglement is propagated instantaneously and measurement acts faster than light. If Alice and Bob share an entangled pair of spins and Alice measures it, Bob has gained no information until Alice communicates (sublight speed) her result. No new information is shared at measurement time. This is known as the no-communication theorem.
Author: Prof. Douglas Ross of Southampton University - https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~doug/
And in case it wasn't already obvious, that URL indicates Doug was at the University for a long time. The University stopped letting even its staff pick a username years ago, maybe even decades ago and the default assigned usernames are... a bit dull.
The key aspects of quantum physics can be explained very simply. The issue is going in depth without those basics. I often find if someone doesn't get Quantum Physics, it's that source or you need the steps explaining more in-depth. Often sources assume your base knowledge and that is where many fall flat.
When I learned about causal sets program and algebraic quantum field theory, I finally (somewhat) understood quantum physics.
Tl;dr spacetime does not exist as a global background where things are "placed", it is not ontic. "Things" are first, and spacetime is derived from interaction statistics of "things". This eliminates nearly all naive paradoxes like double slit etc. Now, these "things" are somewhat complicated and non-intuitive (e.g. there are no individual "particles", they are a limit of discrete distributions), but that's a good start.
Sorkin is great. I think causal sets make some things simpler but other more mysterious. I also found t’ Hooft’s automata and Spekkens toy illuminating in different ways.
"Was", unfortunately. He died this September. What a loss, he earned a Nobel long ago.
My question is, if I just refuse to believe in quantum physics, that makes it go away and/or be inapplicable to me, right?
Uh oh, some people have no sense of humor =\
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