DeepSeek-v4.1-Flash-1017
huggingface.co620 points by theykk 14 hours ago
620 points by theykk 14 hours ago
https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news261017/
https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4.1-flash-1017
DS isn't better than Sol and Gemini in the benchmarks, but after working with them all for a while now I'm beginning to understand why people find DS _feels_ so much better. First, it's the tok/s and TTFT from providers. Deepseek blazes through work - at quite good quality - and you don't find yourself waiting for your agents to finish. Second is the openness. Being able to see the CoT and not being randomly blocked for cyber review. You're never wondering if it's stuck or if it will randomly fail. Combined with the great cost value.. My next subscription will probably be Z.ai Feels better to me in the sense that it doesn't try to be too clever. When I ask it to do things it actually generates code that a developer would write. That still lets me build software in layers like I do mentally. And it keeps you in control of where abstractions are. Some people would say that you don't need this at all with the frontier llms. But when extending existing software or writing software that fits into an existing ecosystem, I find I still need to offer a lot of guidance. And it's better that the context window isn't flooded with code that was reverted after I looked at it. > Some people would say that you don't need this at all with the frontier LLMs Hit the nail on the head. Development methodologies pivoting at the whim of frontier models have been one of the things that have been worrying me as of late. it doesn't worry me too much tbh. This is really just cutting corners and going this route leaves you with some kind of additive ship of theseus piece of software you don't understand and require your frontier model to work with, which just... becomes more additive and gross.
right now we're in some proverbial heyday of everyone seeing how absolutely grand of a thing they can make with frontier models.
over time i expect some old design philosophies to take hold with people who use LLM's successfully and find a place again paired with developers who understand why such layered methodologies are important... because this whole AI thing wasn't the silver bullet CEO's and crazy execs thought it was. They will eventually get sick of the support burden of badly designed stuff. i anticipate a bit of pendulum swinging back towards "still using AI, but we need smart people to do it because it's expensive and we want it done right". Right now a lot of companies are being extremely reckless imo and they haven't fully realized/felt the cost implications of trainwreck software yet. What if those “cost implications” are just asking Opus 6.7 to fix whatever issue cropped up? Exactly. In a way, that’s the situation today. You can pay an experienced developer $$$$ to do it right, or you can outsource it and pay $$ but pay extra for more layers of review, have lots of unfixed bugs and more tech debt. You are proposing that instead we pay the frontier model to clean it up. If it can, I expect it to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of an experienced dev because that’s the alternative. That’s the way the frontier AI companies will extracting the value of the work from you. > I expect it to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of an experienced dev because that’s the alternative But there's two ways this could be true: Frontier models costs rise, or (more likely) experience dev costs fall > haven't fully realized/felt the cost implications of trainwreck software yet As long as the API is private or not dependent on by automated systems and you have good test coverage, you can get away with bad code IMO since you can always refactor. If it looks stupid but it works (and can be refactored/fixed/improved later if needed) it aint stupid. Used to say this about dev written code, if it has tests, I can usually live with it. IMO the fundamental principles and "conflicts" are still the same, but many have forgotten about them with all the hype and sense of speed. The industry will slowly rediscover them. Support burden? When did companies care about customer support or system maintenance? They already did the bare minimum allocation to both despite engineering screaming at them. I highly doubt executives are going to accept slower release and sale cycles in order to provide better support. If anything, I expect this trend to accelerate. I’m imagining the opposite, a plethora of AI slop with increasingly burned-out engineers. > slower release and sale cycles Sales are out of their control. If there’s a market for quality and you don’t have it, sales are going down no matter what the PHB wants. If there’s not, watch out for the vibe-coded competitor. Buggy slop products will burn buyers and then people will buy less. The very-early-80s video game companies shoveled out slop, including a few games that wouldn't even launch. Which led to the Great Video Game Crash of 1983. I've been using layered development techniques like the parent says even with frontier models, just one agent at a time with Zed. I just use a suite of tests to enforce the mechanical standards (dry, encapsulation, etc) and arch documents for shape + reviews of new work against the two. I’m not seeing any significant drift. Yea, this is one thing that gets me. Vibe coding and freestyle prompting gets wildly different results. Starting from a set of specs and expectations routinely gets me reviewable and we'll tested code. Sure, running the full test suite alot slows things down and uses more tokens, but when I hit a five hour or weekly window, I just roll up my sleeves and start working without the model because the code is layed out the way I expected and is designed to fit my meatbag workflow and pace. You must not be looking very closely yourself then. When is the last time you used a frontier model? Any chance you work someplace that forces you to use last year's model (or any American open weight model)? > Feels better to me in the sense that it doesn't try to be too clever. When I ask it to do things it actually generates code that a developer would write. That still lets me build software in layers like I do mentally. And it keeps you in control of where abstractions are. yes!So it's not just me. In terms of how intelligent they want to be OpenAI is at the top, then Claude. And actually when I was playing with Sol it meant that many tasks it would just try to do something else because it thought I don't know what I want. Even trying to nudge it back in the right direction wouldn't work. I guess the models just have the cultures of their creatures. > it doesn't try to be too clever DS is miles better than GLM in this regard. I wanted to add that as PC is planning to go to GLM next. Interesting. I’ve been using GLM 5.3 Flash for a couple months and found it to be great. What has it been doing that you found to be “too clever”? It sometimes gets stuck in loops. I once asked it to do a code review of a simple pattern and it went off on a 45 odyssey trying to analyze too much. But other than those, it’s been a pretty good daily workhorse. And you can’t beat the price. Even Deepseek 4.1 Flash is more expensive. And I switched to GLM 5.3 Flash from DS 4 Flash, my previous daily driver, which I also found quite good. Anyway, my point isn’t to start a “which model is better” subthread, but was just curious what behavior you’ve seen where it’s “too clever.” Anecdotal but I was doing regular adversarial reviews of new work using about 5 models (mostly the open Chinese ones like DS, GLM, Qwen, Kimi, etc) and GLM routinely took much longer for similar results and the same instructions. It would just loop on things and go down rabbit holes more. DS flash has been so consistently good I've kinda settled on it for 90% of my work. I still use adversarial review for bigger changes where I want to make sure any issues are caught early, but I genuinely feel as tho if no new models ever get made I'd be fine with just using DS forever. What quant were you using? I’ve been using Q4_K_S for a while now and it’s been rock solid, but having tried Q3_XS, that would loop like crazy. Maybe try a bigger quantity size? It wastes my time. A lot! In different ways. That's the tl;dr. Really. Keeps repeating things I settled as accepted or rejected. But what really gets on my nerves? The language it uses – that aweful, useless typical LLM languages! No AGENTS.md instruction, no per session instruction, no just two-prompts-prior instruction seems to work, hell sometimes instruction regarding that in same prompt doesn't work. GOOD/BAD example along with instruction don't work. That wastes time and zones you out! Not to mention the fatigue of to and fro. DS has been working much better. Hell Gemini 3.1 Pro works so much better than GLM. I don't have extended experience with OpenAI and Anthromic models but the free claide.ai works quite well and better than GLM 5.3 (not even flash). Albeit I must say I rarely use claude.ai for coding, but technical tasks? All the time! GLM's best response: "No excuse. My fault. You exactly asked me not to do exactly that and so did the AGENTS.md. I failed". Love it. Except that if I press I will get that response every 5 prompts. In my experience GLM and Claude models behave in ways that steadily drift from your directives and speak in similarly mannered "Claudese", leading me to believe that glm was more or less trained to mimic Claude. I think this reflects a very strong gravitational pull anchored at the system prompt level to specific voice and behavior directives directives. I find other models like DS and Gemini are more compliant and drift much less from my custom behavior and voice directives. For me GLM thinks too much for no reason. It takes a 2-3 turns for DS where for GLM it takes up to 10. I like giving precise instructions,”update function xx to support input yy, add tests”. There is no reason for 10 turns and 5 minutes of waiting. I briefly tried GLM 5.3 Flash and the first thing I noticed was how slow it was followed quickly by its single-mindedness. With DS 4.1 Flash I find that it understands that not all the detail in my prompt is important. Sometimes I like to give a quick example of what I'm looking for and it can take the hint whereas GLM will seemingly reshape its worldview around this tiny detail. DS just handles ambiguity and my bursts of detail with much more grace. I'm only using "max effort" and the CoT is reasonable compared to GLM. > the first thing I noticed was how slow it This really depends on the provider, it's a very fast model with ours > My next subscription will probably be Z.ai Wait... you just spent 3 paragraphs singing the praises of DS... and then you say you're going to subscribe to the one that makes GLM. ? (I do tend to agree with you, though I tend to favor GLM-5.3-flash over DS 4.1 flash.) Z.ai does offer access to DS AFAIK, so I guess that's what they mean? Maybe the feeling is that it provides more value that DS's own platform since you also get GLM, not sure. maybe the point was become of the openness, they will be using z.ai? But it’s not at all as described in terms of work style - it’s much more like Claude. Reading quickly, I thought the open CoT was the most important piece of comment, probably just bc that seems like it would be the most useful to me. debugging reasoning traces more effectively seems useful to find prompt issues writing custom harnesses even if it runs on stronger model later Agreed. It doesn’t have to be better, it just had to be nearly equivalent. I’ve been doing a lot of vulnerability work lately (trying to get ahead of the bots finding exploits in our code) and the frontier models feel like a chaperone at a church dance: get too close and they show up with the ruler and enforce the safety margin. Using deepseek and glm and qwen, I’ve gotten nearly equivalent results without the constraints. I still use frontier models for things but outside of a company environment, I’m happy to spend 1/10 the money, get the same results, and not have try and trick the AI into working. No need to use a chinese provider, in case that's an issue for you. https://fireworks.ai provides this model for an ok price. I'd rather my data go to China and directly to labs that release open weight models (DeepSeek is MIT licensed still); instead of closed labs and the NSA/CIA; who has far better ability to hurt me than China does. Without getting too much into politics; over the past several decades, one country is going around starting wars, regime changes and other interventionism, or initiating economic warfare (Huawei sanctions because they were getting too competitive to US companies; GPU restrictions; tariffs; etc), and that's not one administration: it's US policy over the past few decades. Have a look here: This number reports, basically, how good it is to live inside a country, while the comment that you are replying to is entirely a list of foreign policy complaints (regime changes, etc). It's kinda like meeting someone on the street who's protesting about animal cruelty in slaughterhouses, slyly handing them a chart showing them the nutrition facts of beef, and then walking off without another word as though you've settled your case. Like, I get the point you're trying to make, but I hope you're aware it's a non-sequitur in context? > Like, I get the point you're trying to make, but I hope you're aware it's a non-sequitur in context? Your hope should have been that amelius was not aware that it's a non-sequitur, because that is correctable. But then they kept posting and removed all doubt. Why link to a number, which means roughly nothing, instead of the specific details on the countries you're trying to compare? I have no idea how to break down or make my own assessment of what 0.83 or 0.18 means. Does that 0.83 for the US include all of the people being shipped off without due process to El Salvador, or do they count that as part of El Salvador's Human Right Index? People like to bring up the Uyghurs immediately, but never really have the same smoke for the US. Also, do we include the prison population in human rights? Do we include access to healthcare? What about systems perpetuating poverty like lack of access to public transportation? To pre-emptively be clear on my stance or potential bias, I stand by no country in the world. I was born in Iran, and my parents left when I was young to the US because they believed in the American Dream. The irony being that the dominos of why they left were initiated by the US and UK. And long before Trump was elected, but certainly immediately afterwards, I decided to leave the US once I had the means. (Also because of the lack of public transit, the $100k medical bills after an accident, being punched by a homeless person, and having my possessions stolen repeatedly and the cops giving me a :shrug:). I moved to Japan, where I experienced blatant racism for the first time. I moved to Hong Kong (and tbh no real complaints so far), but I am technically subject to the freedom of speech constraints on China. I have no allegiance to any country or specific people. My allegiance is to all living beings. Sorry but you're arguing against a reputable institution here. I'm not arguing against a reputable institution, I'm arguing against using that reputation + their final number alone without going through the process to verify the methodology myself, which you didn't link to. You only showed the conclusion, which to all of us, should mean very little until we look into how that number was arrived at. And I don't care if they're reputable, I will look at the methodology and make my own conclusion either way. Appeals to authority are not a substitute for critical thinking. We're not talking about a few % difference here. If you want to look into it then fine, but you have to come up with some really good evidence if you think you can debunk anything here. We're talking about the country that has tried multiple times to destroy their country, look up Mossadegh for the 1950s and check out the glorious bombing of a school for 2026. No lessons to take from the US. PS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_U... I know the US thinks only its citizens are human, so "The United States has been involved in hundreds of interventions in foreign countries throughout its history, engaging in nearly 500 military interventions between 1776 and 2026, with half of these operations occurring since 1950 and over 25% occurring in the post-Cold War period” is not probably part of the reputable storytelling There's absolutely nothing in those numbers to argue against. They are simply providing fluffy quantitative declarations in order for people who don't even claim any particular knowledge or even understanding of the details of the metric (such as yourself) to argue from authority. If they actually said something, it would be much less effective. > We're not talking about a few % difference here. How may freedom percent is it again? Do you lose 1% or 20% for failing to allow foreign ownership of utilities? How many percent do you gain for stopping Russian misinformation?
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