Waymo in Singapore
waymo.com94 points by ramanan 4 hours ago
94 points by ramanan 4 hours ago
Waymo are working towards Tokyo as well. I'm worried. Living in here, I've noticed that the taxi industry acts as an unintentional social support system. Many taxi drivers are in-between jobs or stages in life, or simply didn't fit in to the corporate life. It doesn't pay well, but it's a decent job all things considered.
I worry the death of the taxi industry means even less avenues for these people to escape to.
Of course the argument here is "well Japan should fix the corporate situation" but the current prime minister seems to be hellbent on the opposite. I think this will suck for a lot of people.
We will see this with many industries.
In theory, if things get cheaper to produce, business profits should rise and governments should be able to raise more taxes. Meaning the government then has more room to provide goods and services for free to people who need them.
Doesn't Tokyo have very low unemployment? According to Wikipedia: Japan 2.5%, Singapore 3.2%, USA 4.1%, EU 5.2%.
I expect Tokyo is probably even lower than the national average. Visiting just as a tourist it seems like Japan is quite good at creating, I don't want to say bullshit jobs, but perhaps not-that-necessary jobs? Jobs which mainly serve to give something to do to (usually) elderly. My understanding was that the idea is to make them feel to be a contributing part of the society(?)
I mean all the people controlling the pedestrians or acting like "human signs" and such.
Am I getting it wrong?
Due to its aging population and lack of mass immigration, Japan has a desperate labor shortage in many fields.
I don't think taxi driving in Tokyo is one of them (because, as noted, the qualifications needed are pretty minimal), although eg bus drivers are in extremely short supply.
A basic commuter car costs over S180,000( US135,000) due to a compulsory 10-year quota license (COE/certificate of entitlement) that alone costs S$100,000+, plus registration taxes scaling up to 320% of the car's base value. Total running costs (tolls, parking, road tax) easily add S1,000–S2,000+ per month.
Singapore is so small though and cabs are cheap and I never needed a car. I can see why Waymo will be very attractive.
If you never needed a car in Singapore then why is the COE so expensive? COE price is determined from a bidding process.
~$100,000 every 10 years is expensive, but I think even in a lot of countries with good public transport, there would be a large number of people who would consider paying $1,000 a month to be able to have a car if that was the only way to have one. It seems to me as though a lot families share a car quite widely too.
Even in countries without an expensive on-road tax, people do often choose to pay more than $10,000 a year in depreciation cost, rather than the option of buying a car that has already gone through the early, rapid depreciation. People also choose to get a car loan, again increasing the cost. I'm fairly uninformed whether the interest on those is significant.
Of course, the COE is in addition to depreciation and maintenance, and those are both also expensive in Singapore. Plus people buy the cars through loans. And, excluding everything I've said above, the cars themselves are very expensive to buy!
As an example, a 2.0L e:HEV Honda Civic is US$195,000 including the COE, so approximately US$90,000 without it. Looking on the US Honda site, it looks like the same car is under US$33,000. There must some on-road taxes in the US, and difference in specs, but that's a big difference in price, in addition to the ~$100,000 COE.
Even knowing they're expensive, there's something I still can't get over, seeing a 6-figure price across the windscreen of a base model (and knowing you don't get to take off any zeros when doing a currency conversion to what you're used to).
https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/individual-income-tax/basics-o...
If you're well paid expat, it might not be the worst as well. You save so much on income tax in Singapore, but consumption is expensive.
I'm sure for many Singapore still comes out ahead cost wise.
If you are an American, you have to start looking into the housing deduction to make your taxes work since the foreign tax credit doesn’t go very far in Singapore (and you need the FTC after the foreign earned income credit caps).
> You save so much on income tax in Singapore, but consumption is expensive.
It depends on what you are consuming. Sins like driving, alcohol, smoking and gambling are expensive. But the daily essentials aren't all that expensive, especially eating out starts very low.
> People also choose to get a car loan, again increasing the cost.
Sorry, could you please explain how car loans increase the cost?
> Of course, the COE is in addition to depreciation and maintenance, and those are both also expensive in Singapore. Plus people buy the cars through loans. And, excluding everything I've said above, the cars themselves are very expensive to buy!
In a sense, all these other costs don't really matter: if they increased (or dropped) by a dollar, in equilibrium the winning CoE bid would drop (respectively increase) by a dollar.
I said I never needed a car there :) I can get anywhere by cab in like < 30 mins so I never saw the need to have one. However there are plenty of ultra rich people living there and also many driving luxury cars. It's also a status symbol there(Credit card/Condo/Car).
Condos are for the middle class. Landed property is the status symbol (but, alas, it doesn't start with a C.)
Btw, the cab obviously need to bid for CoE as well.
in addition to all the other responses, owning a car in Singapore is also a status symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Cs_of_Singapore
despite the convenience of a well-run public transport system and uber-like services, the ease and freedom of owning your own transport is still hard to beat, and evidently worth the ~75k dollar COE. it removes the walk from bus/subway stations under the tropical/sun, humidity; and the wait (typically 5-10min) of waiting for your uber/taxi driver to showup and enduring the uber car smell (often heavily scented for some reason and triggers my allergic reaction) and someone else's music. and once you have children a car is almost a must.
Yes. And the Uber-like services and traditional taxis also need to bid for CoE.
I never had a problem with the driver's music in Singapore: usually they just play the bland local radio, or you can ask them to turn it off. Smell: sometimes a problem when you get a smoker. I guess some try to mask that with heavy scents?
For me the worst is that the local taxi uncles tend to pump the gas pedal. That's nausea inducing.
About the wait for the cab: usually you wait in the mall or at home etc, where you can have shelter from the sun and aircon.
Having your own car is convenient, especially with kids, since you can keep stuff in the car. But having to find parking all the time is also annoying.
One part: the people running the taxis and Grab also need to bid for slots.
And if you have kids, being able to leave stuff in your car is pretty useful, so you might want to bid.
Though I guess the main reason is: Singapore is rich, so that drives up the bidding.
A lot of people get a car when they have kids as taking grab with a car seat can be unwieldy. Also, COE wasn’t always $100K, many people are still on legacy COE when it was $30-$50K
That's a good call-out actually. I haven't thought of people with kids.
One note, taxis are exempt from car seat laws and you can book them on demand via grab or the taxi company apps. That's what we did, it's a slight risk but so is life.
Are taxis exempt, but car-sharing like Grab not exempt? I have seen Grab drivers turn down taking a child without a car seat a few times.
> Also, COE wasn’t always $100K, many people are still on legacy COE when it was $30-$50K
What vintage was that?
COE was around 30K in the first year of COVID. Not exceptionally long ago. We have a continental car we bought at the end of 2020 with a 41.5K COE; we paid less in total than what a base-model Corolla costs nowadays.
Thanks for explaining.
Covid was special. We also rented a shop house at the height of Covid (late 2020) and paid as much per square metre as we previously had paid for HDB.
Are car seats mandatory for children in taxis in Singapore?
The rules differ between Grab (our local Uber-lookalike) and traditional taxis.
They are less strict for the latter.
For the official taxis they are not, but for ride hailing taxis like Grab/Gojek they are.
The utility of a car in singapore is very different from other places. Yes, a car will get you faster from point A to point B in singapore when compared to public transport. But you can get a private hire car or a taxi which is just as fast and is probably much more convenient.
For many people in Singapore, a car's real utility is to signal status. More often than not, this status gets you real-life benefits. Such as increased dating success.
interestingly enough though, car ownership, and even having a driver's license is increasingly less common among the young.
Yes, because when adjusted to car ownership costs, the young have a lower purchasing power when compared to the older generation at the same age back then.
I'm not sure that's a good lens to look through: the total number of cars in Singapore is fixed, and ownership cost adjusts (via the CoE auction) to balance supply and demand.
So there's no drop in total car ownership to explain: that one is held fixed. What we'd need to explain is why comparatively more older people and fewer younger people drive.
For Singapore's boomers, success once meant the 5 Cs: cash, car, credit card, condominium and country club. For today's young Singaporeans, these no longer define success.
> cabs are cheap
Everyone says that but I've had the opposite experience, possibly due to my location (near Orchard Rd). Can easily pay $15 to essentially go around the corner.
> Can easily pay $15 to essentially go around the corner.
Would it not be better to simply walk if the distance is essentially around the corner?
I love walking - checking distance tracking on my phone, I walked over 20km in a day a couple of weeks ago. But when it's hot in Singapore, the distances I don't want to walk can become crazy-short at times.
I'm hesitating to judge someone taking a ride-share around the corner. Among many other reasons, I can imagine scenarios where someone would think it worth paying to not arrive a sweaty mess.
Have you considered using a pedometer watch or a fitness tracker that doesn't rely on phone data?
Rains a lot and often around 30°C. Walking is not always an option if you need to be presentable wherever you're going.
I walk 99% of the time. By around the corner, I mean a 10 - 20 min walk (5 min drive in good traffic), which will easily get you drenched in sweat depending on the weather. If I'm headed to a dinner or gathering that requires a bit of dressing up (shirt and trousers), walking isn't really an option.
How much do you pay for around the corner ride in any comparable large metropolis?
Well, to be petty, people living in Orchard Rd. don’t care about 15 dollars (be it US or SG).
On the plus side, super low network latency to the people in the Philippines actually driving these driverless vehicles, it's a win!
I don't get what's the point of Waymo in cities like Singapore or Tokyo with perfect public transport, one can udnerstand appeal in US, but in Europe or Eastern Asia?
Singapore has the potential to be the first country to eliminate the private ownership of vehicles.
Singapore will not be the first. Albania banned private vehicle ownership for over 40 years until 1991.
Potential, sure. Is it likely? No. Singapore does pretty well with the CoE system and congestion charge.
And eg cars used for Grab and trucks and busses are also privately owned.
Bet you they won't, because many (most?) Singaporeans think that owning a car is somehow a life achievement.
To add a bit more context: owning a car in Singapore is extremely expensive, basically meaning that if can afford that, “you made it”.
Why is this something to be celebrated? Private ownership of land, property too ?
Actually, pretty much all land is owned by the government in Singapore, and leased out for about 30 years for commercial property or up to 99 years for residential property.
Singapore would do better banning cars altogether.
We already do something like that: we allow around 1 million cars on the island (with around 6 million people living here). We auction off the rights to operate one of these 1 million cars for ten years at a time (you still need to buy your own car, of course).
Your proposal would be equivalent to dropping that number from 1 million to 0 million.
I think a reduction in the total number of cars is worth debating, but I don't think 0 is the optimal number.
Though I do wish Singapore would take inspiration from Japan, and eliminate street parking; and in general have the government exit the car storage business.
Isn't it better to allow a few luxury cars that are taxed to oblivion? As long as there aren't too many cars, the city can be pleasant, and it's a nice source of revenue.
What I have heard of the situation is car infrastructure is disproportionally funded because it's used by the rich and influential. It's a drain on public resources when more is spent building huge highways everywhere that the average person can't afford to use.
While this is true, it's not as bad as somewhere like the US. Public transit gets a lot of funding there, I think they open something like 10 new MRT stations a year on average in recent years, and buses typically come every 2-8 minutes so you never have to wait long.
They already effectively done that with COE. You essentially own piece of metal, which is only roadworthy if you pay $$$
Cars are extremely expensive in Singapore, and driving here is becoming increasingly frustrating, what with constant road congestions, seemingly endless roadworks, and inconsiderate drivers, some of whom appear never to have heard of turn signals.
Seriously considering selling our family’s 3 petrol cars and replacing them with a small EV (byd racco, if it ever comes to Singapore) only for grocery runs, especially if Waymo becomes a reality here. I’m not a fan of the inconsistent experience offered by Singapore’s private-hire operators, such as Grab, where poorly maintained vehicles and questionable driving standards are not uncommon.
I also hope Waymo eventually uses the China made Zeekr Ojai in Singapore rather than the Jaguar I-Pace.
Singapore is actually pretty good about congestion, what with CoE and congestion charges.
Isn't public transport good enough?
Unfortunately the nearest MRT station is at least a 30 mins walk from where we live.
Singapore is a controlled economy, and has a large workforce for Taxi Drivers and part-time drivers through Grab. I am not sure how the entrenchment of robotaxis like Waymo (and future tesla) is going to play with the general population. My guess, they will co-exist as the government wont jeopardize the living of the taxi-driver-complaining uncles.
Also, I notice a lot new SF based AI companies have started establishing their offices in Singapore too. Sierra, and Fireworks coming to my mind. As government plays a huge part in Singapore, I guess, government noticing these as necessary investments for the future of Singapore.
Singapore wants to _look_ modern, and Waymos with the spinning lidars are such icons of futurism that Singapore cannot afford to lose out (as compared to Pony.ai's AV fleet, which is already deployed but not very eye catching).
But the best part of that control is the free market is only free to the extent the government allows it. There is plenty of time for the taxi drivers to retire. In fact, I believe the average age of taxi drivers are close to 70, so this is forward looking to address a cab driver shortage.
Singapore really wants to look like Season 3 of Westworld. A shame the Marina Bay flying drone taxi service looks completely dead.
Singapore will do what they always do, which is take a measured approach and control every aspect of the roll out. If they're allowing this, it's because they've already modeled a shortfall in taxi drivers in the future, and they'll keep the number of licenses for each type in balance to meet their goals.
Judging by the depressing number of elderly selling tissues in food courts to get by I dont think the government ever really cared about eliminating service jobs.
It's enough for them that those people have somewhere basic to live and basic medical care so their stats dont look too bad.
> My guess, they will co-exist as the government wont jeopardize the living of the taxi-driver-complaining uncles.
It’s been mentioned: https://www.mot.gov.sg/news-resources/newsroom/-more-options...
Been seeing Waymo test cars in Tokyo.
Must be early in the process, most if not all the photos and graphics where the driving side is visible show North American side driving.
They are apparently up to two years out from carrying passengers
"Waymo said it will introduce its fully autonomous, all-electric ride-hailing service in Singapore via the Waymo app by 2028.
An initial fleet of all-electric Jaguar I-PACE vehicles is expected to arrive in the coming months, it said.
Mapping and validation activities are scheduled for 2027, with trained autonomous specialists conducting initial manual driving to adapt the Waymo Driver to local road geometry, monsoon weather patterns, and more. "
https://mothership.sg/2026/09/waymo-self-driving-cars-singap...
Is that super old i-Pace even still in production?
No, but production ceased pretty recently and Waymo still has an inventory of them with zero miles.
What do you mean? There’s very few images of a car driving, but the roads seem to be correct. Some of the images are definitely generic marketing copy and not Singapore specific, but it seems fairly obvious which ones.
Unless you mean the steering wheel is on the wrong side, but that seems like it wouldn’t matter for an autonomous vehicle.
This thing is DOA if it only does predetermined route, which I think is what's going to happen.