Neki – Sharded Postgres
planetscale.com188 points by simon_weber 8 hours ago
188 points by simon_weber 8 hours ago
Folks, in your launch posts remember to describe what you're launching and what it's for. Ideally in the opening paragraph.
- Intro: Explains problem but not what is Neki or what it's for.
- Why Neki: Explains alternatives and why they suck but not what is Neki or what it's for.
- How does Neki work: Describes the technical components but not what is Neki or what it's for.
- What you get beyond sharding: Explains how to run/deploy but not what is Neki or what it's for.
- What is a platform preview + Try Neki today: 140 words on the definition of "preview" and links to get started... but not what is Neki or what it's for.
Edit: The landing page has 100x more useful information up front -> https://neki.dev/
Edit #2: They've since added a "What is Neki" section. Good reaction time.
Folks, your blog post sucks at marketing.
Edit: your marketing site actually has excellent marketing information.
Edit #2: They've since replaced the blog post with a link to the marketing page. Good reaction time.
The landing page which is linked at the start of the second sentence of this page…? I don’t completely disagree with you, but this is mostly hypertext working as intended, is it not?
Yeah this meta commentary on HN is very confusing for me. The structure of the article is literally
- short paragraph saying "we launched neki"
- short paragraph saying why neki was needed
- paragraphs about what neki is (with a header)
That seems like a very reasonable structure for a blog post like this one. Not being able to get to the third paragraph of a blog post seems like a "you" problem, not a blog problem.
The tech might be amazing, but the CEO comes across as an asshole
He's actually quite nice over zoom so he just comes off as funny on twitter once you've met him.
> he just comes off as funny on twitter once you've met him.
Never heard of the guy before today, but his dickish, edge-lord aura (on X and in this thread) makes me not want to meet him. If I had to choose between buying from him, or some other random dude, I'll hear out the random dude first.
Perhaps he's quite nice over zoom, but since very few of us are going to meet him in that context, the rest of us are left to judge him by what he posts. And as they say, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.
Based on what I've read so far, with his shit-talking the competition, he seems like... a bit of an asshole.
Sam is not an asshole. His twitter is great, he's definitely opinionated, and if you haven't had the luck of meeting him you might misread his tone as grumpy. It's not. It's sarcastic/dry humour and honest.
They build good stuff and care.
You can build good stuff, care, and be very opinionated...you can also be all of those things and still be an asshole.
I can fully understand why someone would think that.
There's obviously more to the story than outsiders are aware, but personally it just leaves a bit of sour taste in my mouth when the tech and blog posts you guys put out are amazing.
(I'm a paying PS customer)
Genuine question, since I'm a little out of the loop; why do you say that?
nothing i have said is untrue. a founder of a company leaving to compete out of greed is a bad thing and i am glad to call it out.
Did anyone say you said anything untruthful? No, they just called you an asshole. You can both be an asshole and be right.
PS - Just some advice that I learned in sales 101 early in my career...focusing on shit talking the competition generally isn't a strategy that works well.
Unless you are at the basketball court where talking smack is a valid winnign strategy
> You can both be an asshole and be right.
"You're not wrong Walter, you're just an asshole." - The Dude
> You can both be an asshole and be right.
Only petty people can hold that view.
In case you were unaware, if someone's defense against being called an asshole is to say "well nothing I said was false" they're almost certainly an asshole.
No one accused you of dishonesty.
I love how the Planetscale CEO has been shitting on multigres[0], Supabase's equivalent to Neki, and gloating about how superior Neki is, and yet Neki is not even open source!
Sam, it feels like you're just playing games. It's hard to take anything you say or do seriously. Are you going to OSS this thing? Or have you decided to backpedal?
Congrats on the checks notes closed launch, I guess?
Every PlanetScale launch seems to come with a side of beef with the competition. Case in point: https://x.com/samlambert/status/2098069474205470970?s=20
Just launch the product and let it speak for itself. The constant need to take shots at competitors comes across as pretty childish.
How does open source have anything to do with Neki's ability to scale against a service that doesn't even do sharding.
They both are characteristics of software that people consider when deciding whether to use it.
Open source being by far the more important of the two, since it means the user is more insulated by terrible corporate decisions thus making it more suitable for long term planning.
have you ever worked for a customer of AWS? If so you have contributed heavily to the destruction of commercial open source.
I've never known in a shorter time that a CEO is too defensive to be a business partner faster.
It is the only reason I come to the comments section of PlanetScale posts on HN.
Their CEO always immediately comes in and makes a fool out of himself. He is what you get when you mix narcissism and being a midwit.
I have not in fact, no, despite working 12 years as an SWE.
Unlike you, probably, if we're slinging unfounded accusations.
But your customers are, of course, somehow different? What point are you even trying to make?
Commerical open source is fine. It's nobody else's fault if you raised too much to make it work sustainably.
My customers aren't pretending it's a bad thing that Neki isn't open source.
A year ago in the initial announcement post you explicitly mentioned open sourcing it.
> When we are ready we will release Neki as an open source project suitable for running the most demanding Postgres workloads.
Has this changed?
Acknowledging the benifits of keeping a commercial product closed source is one thing, claiming open source has no value is another thing.
Sad to see this coming from a company that was itself built on the foundation of an open-source project like Vitess.
who said open source has no value? I worked at GitHub for 6 years i clearly love open source.
We maintain Vitess using our company funds. Why are you going after a small company for defending itself against companies like Amazon but not criticizing the reason we have to do this.
I would love to open source Neki and I have not said we won't.
See? You're proving my point. All you do is play games. Are you even capable of engaging without confrontation?
You've simply chosen not to listen, considering that they've voiced those concerns to me.
modeling your public relations strategy after matt mullenweg, I see
It's very effective, I'm certainly persuaded to never touch their products.
A remarkable own goal given that if they'd literally held their tongue, I'd be at worst indifferent.
Do they get the same backlash if they went with a source available license similar to MongoDB or Elastic?
The top concern I've gotten from dev teams when proposing HA distributed postgres (e.g through RDS Aurora global) is that eventual consistency is not suitable for many workloads.
Does Neki solve for this, and if so how? My understanding of CAP theorem is that this basically requires some compromises around availability, but I'm curious as to what that looks like in practice here.
Assuming it works the same way as their MySQL product, Vitess:
The usual way to run it is that you partition your db based on something like a user, so that single user gets a consistent DB, but anything cross-shard may not be.
I know when I worked at Block, Cashapp was using Vitess and getting cross-shard DB writes down and functioning correctly was one of the major blockers to adoption. (though I just did tls management for vitess and didn't write any workloads on top of it, so my impression might be a bit off)
Therefore, Consistency guarantees are based on implementing application-specific partitioning (correctly)?
Yeah. Vitess does have some options for atomic cross-shard commits using an additional database to track two-phase commits, but that's expensive so you probably want to avoid that. https://vitess.io/docs/25.0/reference/features/distributed-t...
Same here, first thing I need to know when considering a distributed system is how consistency is handled. If it's eventual consistency, what is the replication lag like? If it's strong consistency, can their network handle that? What happens when a node goes down?
I need this for my side project that has zero users, but I wonder if Neki will scale well enough.
have you tried simultaneously vertically and horizontally scaling?
My plan is to automatically boot a new Kubernetes cluster for every db query.
I wonder how the performance will be, but I can just rewrite everything in Rust.
I love to see this but as a heavy Vitess/MySQL user I do fear the split focus from PlanetScale. Hoping to see continued improvements on the Vitess side as well.
Selfish doubts aside, congrats to Planetscale on the launch!
don't worry, we still give a lot of love to vitess. at the end of the day they are both databases. the beauty of doing both is we can take learnings from each product and apply it to the other.
Kinda ironic that Planetscale built their company on open source Vitess that google built
And now planetscale have made a Vitess like equivalent for Postgres which they have made proprietary
Man, I was deep into this blog post before I was able to answer the question "what is Neki?".
If I don't know what I'm reading about by the third or fourth phrase, I skip it. Empty language comes from empty minds and I don't have time for that.
Is this going to be open sourced? I thought this was the plan at the start. But ow I am confused.
I am on a 12 Muni right now that is plastered with a Neki ad, and I looked up neki.dev literally 10 mins ago to see what this product is about. Did they time the release of this bus ad with the launch date?
How does Neki compare to https://pgdog.dev/?
it works and does sharding
Same here! Except:
- PgDog is open source
- It runs anywhere, not just your cloud
- It's built for Postgres, not a MySQL pivot
Neki is a sharded Postgres implementation. It introduces one level of indirection between the application and the Postgres shards.
Found this from neki.dev.
You can also find that in first section of the linked post (after the intro)...
A C2 level diagram included in the blog post would be helpful. What are the drawbacks to using Neki aside from the obvious (new software has bugs)?
The first thing I want to know when looking at a distributed system is how consistency is handled, ctrl+f for "consis" on both the blog post and neki.dev has zero hits. So I can only assume it will have eventual consistency with a considerable replica lag for real-time systems.
Nice work by the marketing department getting two posts on HN front page at same time.
Pretty exciting to see a sharded Postgres product in the market.
The pitch is compelling. I wonder how many teams will be able to operate sharded database setups in production as a result of this.
Obviously welcome more tools for Postgres and sharding but it’s a tough hill to climb against the hyper clouds. Best wishes to the team.
The largest database to ever run on Aurora MySQL runs on PlanetScale, and the largest database to ever run on Aurora limitless also runs on PlanetScale.
We went as far as we could on GCP before PlanetScale. Spanner is amazing but also amazingly expensive. And CloudSQL, also amazing as long as you don’t need write scaling. PlanetScale (Vitess+MySQL plus their branching / deployment and monitoring tools) is just not a combination offered on GCP. And while I didn’t use Aurora, from talking to and exploring AWS it doesn’t really have this combination either.
Cool, but we're on MySQL - anything similar available? Percona XtraDB?
That is what the “regular” PlanetScale is all about. It uses the Vitess open source project to do write scaling through shading. It is very powerful and customizable and stable. It was built to run YouTube. Former happy user here.
Vitess/Planetscale? Neki is essentially a version of Vitess for Postgres fom the same guys.
Many of the engineers who built Neki also worked on Vitess for years. But it's a ground up new implementation designed to specifically target Postgres.
The first question came to my mind was, how would this compare against Citus.
I actually wrote a bit about this on our blog! https://planetscale.com/blog/the-history-of-postgres-shardin...
Independent of the product, love the branding design for this page.
is this open-sourced?
What does this compete with? Google Cloud SQL?
Multigres is the one that comes to mind
Once they implement sharding...
Yet. But it’s built by the guy who created Vitess and cofounded PlanetScale, so while it doesn’t have sharding implemented at the moment I think it would be foolish to discount it. Plus it’s open source.
The PlanetScale team spent years improving Vitess with lessons learned from many different high scale customer workloads. We continue to invest in and improve Vitess. It's a substantial and growing part of our business.
Vitess today is not the Vitess of 2021. About 70% of the current codebase was written in the last five years, based on lessons we learned running it at scale.
Neki is built for Postgres from the ground up, by the engineers who did that work.
On the Multigres comparison, I'll admit we get a bit salty, mostly because "Vitess for Postgres" invites the comparison. But to date there's no public evidence of a working sharding implementation in Multigres. Their sharding design doc landed this week, and it lists cross-shard query planning and resharding execution as explicitly out of scope.
Neki does sharding today, including online resharding that switches traffic without a maintenance window. It isn't open source, but you can spin up a cluster and try it yourself.
We literally have the counterfactual of the old product and company before he left. We can fully discount Multigres doing anything.
Sugu? The guy that "barely worked" and "shipped nothing at PlanetScale" according to Planetscale's CEO?
Anyone who has worked with Sugu knows this simply isn’t true. Sam Lambert is lying.
I see no mention of foreign keys, or any other constraints, across shards. If, as I suspect, they're not implemented, it would still be useful but at the level of Spanner 10 years ago.
Cross shard transactions are “coming soon”. So, this is just like having multiple postgres clusters.
Cross shard transactions are supported, but we don't have support for atomic 2pc cross shard transactions, its WIP
Curious to compare your implementation to ours [1] some day (if you guys open source it).
Are you one of the developers ? If so, you need to add a specific page explaining in detail the guarantees that this gives.
For example: point 08 says "Assign different tables or workloads to different shard groups" and point 02 says "Split hot shards as workloads grow". How do those interact ? Can a single table be split across multiple shards ? If so don't you need 2pc to enforce primary key constraints ?
The intro pages just read as AI slop.
Will this be open source at some point?
It's not Open Source Software. So, I'm not even interested. Lol
Site design is tight. I like it.
only planet scale? Rookie numbers.
I am looking for interdimensional and interuniversal scale. Which of you trust fund babies has a startup which is working on this problem?
can we choose read-after-write consistency at query time, if needed?
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