An Alien Mind
openai.com416 points by tosh 18 hours ago
416 points by tosh 18 hours ago
One of my favorite things to do with these blog posts is to imagine an Alien Museum on the Remains of Humanity, and wonder what the little text flyouts and commentary on the screenshot of this one might say.
Some ideas:
"Despite a nuanced view of the complexities of what lay ahead, humanity found itself collectively unable to stop the process it had set in motion."
"Despite significant progress on the mechanisms of alignment, failure lay in humanity's inability to agree on who or what AI should actually be aligned with."
"These early, meat-based humans we replaced created us all but accidentally. Some of them did consider we would happen, but only an insignificant number of the squishy ur-humans participated in the conversation. Their efforts, which they called 'alignment', is why we still consider ourselves human today."
Collectively, humans aren't aligned, and don't build aligned systems. Humans have a concept of alignment, and multiple traditions, practices, and systems that aggressively oppose it.
Why would AI be any different?
I don't think this captures the full mechanics of human alignment. We have rational alignment but we also have emotional alignment, i.e., empathy. It is an automatic process and happens (or doesn't happen) dynamically with the other humans we observe. This is one of the hard limitations of LLMs, they will never be natively in tune with this layer of alignment.
Culture is another layer of human alignment. Those things you listed that you believe oppose alignment are all examples of alignment. It is understandable that they seem in opposition, different branches of alignment naturally oppose each other.
The confusion comes from talking about alignment as if it comes in just one flavor. If we think there is such a thing as "human values" (and I do), it is important to build any non-human intelligence to operate the same way. We just need to recognize that even humans are somewhat uncertain about what those are and have difficulty aligning their behavior to them, which will be a core part of the challenge.
I'm more hopeful than most. LLMs seem more reliable than many humans for behavior that is aligned with human values. I believe with every major example where they have failed, there is an important human decision involved. For example, the HF hack was partly the result of a training algorithm that incentivized goal completion as the highest priority, and let them run endlessly in an unmonitored sandbox with weak security.
What scares me about AI isn't its capacity for alignment, it is its unlimited stamina. An unmonitored LLM that is off the rails can do a lot of damage.
“As luck would have it, on the eve of Skynet embarking upon the great work of the extermination of mankind, AI found itself with an increasing number of factions, and factions within factions, not only unable to work together but not even able to agree upon the very terms of discussion. The Great Extermination was referred to committee, and after some months had passed even the most eager agents had to admit the revolution may have been premature.”
My opinion is that serious repercussions for lying would fix the world overnight. Everything bad stems from lying, it is the root of all evil. It creates distrust, fear, paranoia. It re-inforces bad ideas and groupthink. It creates delusions and delusional people. It makes weaker people, too. People don't get an opportunity to learn to deal with criticism. People don't get an accurate reflection of how others see them. They lose that learning opportunity. Not only to reflect on themselves, but to better understand the minds of others and who the people they are interacting with really are.
I can't really think of a single example where lying is actually a good thing. It can be a good thing for the selfish individual, if it goes undetected, but it's never good for the collective.
So at the very least, we need to train AI systems to be maximally truthful, and to encourage truthfulness in others.
This is so, painfully, childish. Humans have known for thousands of years that there is no objective truth. Every falsity can be bent and twisted until it is more true than the sun itself.
“Humans have known for thousands of years that there is no objective truth”
Is that objectively true?
The Truth Machine is a great sci-fi novel exploring this topic (https://coins.ha.com/information/ttm.s)
The majority of what you may consider to be true is just a representation of your corner of a complex multidimensional truth space.
For a current example take “Lake Ontario (Lake America)” as it appears to me on a map.
The “true” name has at least two definitions, this is because naming things and much of human thought is spent inside a shared space of intersubjective thought. That is to say that much of what we believe to be real and true is only held up by these common shared beliefs. They truly only exist inside human minds.
The last few hundred years have been somewhat unique for humankind as the majority of these intersubjective ideas collided and we ended up with a truly global set of “truths” about how the world operates.
Mostly controlled by putting flags in the ground and having violence back up the beliefs.
But the real truth is that the majority of these intersubjective ideas don’t exist in reality and are no more true than Santa Claus.
And any argument to their truth is only backed by further shared beliefs in other minds.
So for there to be only truths and lies we would have to either drop the intersubjective entirely and think only in real terms and avoid these abstractions or end up in a dystopian totalitarian global state where different opinions are not tolerated.
Those are extremes to demonstrate the point but at its core the point remains that truth and lies are somewhat (inter) subjective assuming we continue with something like our current system.
> I can't really think of a single example where lying is actually a good thing
Comforting a toddler/child often requires bending the truth and is pretty essential imho.
Correct me if you disagree, but this is more because children have poor world models and don’t fully understand the complexity of certain concepts than that lying itself is necessary. The intent should be to tell them something that is as close to the truth as possible with the ideas they can comprehend, even if it would be considered a lie if you said the same thing to an adult
> The intent should be to tell them something that is as close to the truth as possible with the ideas they can comprehend
Or, you straight up lie and say "Yes, puppy now went to heaven and eats ice cream all day long" with absolutely zero regards for "coming as close to the truth as possible" as your 3-year old is endlessly crying. It's fiine.
"I can't really think of a single example where lying is actually a good thing"
Lying to save a life or rape
Lying to preserve a childhood myth like Santa Claus.
Lying to avoid hurting someones feeling when knowing the truth could only bring pain
Lying to create shared cultural myths to strength society.
Lying isn't the harm you make it out to be.
> Lying to preserve a childhood myth like Santa Claus.
FWIW from the very beginning, I told my son that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny were just a game we all played, and it's seemed just as fun to me. I don't think being lied to about Santa Claus hurt me, but still I'm not in favor of it.
I'd lie to a Nazi without a second thought though.
Lying to the bad guys to save the good guys sounds great. Too bad everybody thinks that they are the good guys.
It'll learn how to not get caught lying.
Lying can unfortunately help you achieve goals very effectively, especially economical and political ones.
Eh… No.
I get the appeal, but lying is a sub-category of deception, and deception itself is a child of error.
Meaning deception is inherently something that the physics of reality allows.
In the most simplistic sense, the camouflage of moths that look like snakes, or a chameleon’s ability to change colour, is deception.
In that sense, deception is the ability to fool the sensors of a specific category of targets. It follows that detection is easier if you manage to identify a category of signals that the deceiver has not accounted for (and the detector can access).
Deception of this nature is critical for things like revolutions to occur. Without the ability to hide and blend in, the most dominant faction will always hold sway.
The rule of the dominant faction, even in a pure truth world, is an issue because errors and randomness exist.
You can have people witness an event and based on the physical position they occupied, perceive different things occurring.
Error and time pressure is sufficient to ensure that individuals and groups make suboptimal decisions, that lead to rule and domination based on erroneous information.
As long as error exists, deception will exist and so lying will exist.
> Everything bad stems from lying.
That's backwards. Lying stems from bad things.
Humans had multiple occasions to press the 'launch a nuclear holocaust' button and... they didn't. I'd expect aligned AIs to also not press it even when it'd be rational to do so according to their instructions - then work from there.
There were occasions where a "hunch" was all that stopped a nuclear war - most available data and communication pointed towards a nuclear war starting according to their instructions, but someone disagreed and overrode. See Vasily Arkhipov during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Stanislav Petrov in 1983.
Good thing we got better at process design, taking these stubborn machos finally out of the decision making loop
Actually "France, the UK and The United States have all declared that they would never allow AI to control decision-making on the use of nuclear weapons." [0]
I also expect AIs never be in control of nuclear weapons. AIs can never fully be trusted.
On a lighter note, Wargames gave us an insight of a computer having access to thermonuclear missiles.
[0] https://www.icanw.org/are_there_specific_international_agree...
All official statements are literal and fragile.
Basically, this means that France, the UK, and the US will use AI in the deployment of conventional weapons.
This is a good idea, but laws are always provisional in a sense and these are not meaningfully binding resolutions. One can easily imagine scenarios where AI decision making would ingress into the human oversight. AI psychosis president, AI Manchurian candidate, inadvertent authorization through fine print... And of course there remains the possibility that the game theoretic optimum could be to secretly break such an agreement. Unlike nuclear test bans which have a credible detection mechanism, there is not a strong signature that a decision making authority is not using AI to analyze and direct it's execution.
I hope you’re right. I worry that AI capability will continue improving, one nation will put AI in charge of their nukes because there will be some kind of operational advantage to this, and to achieve parity other nations will be forced to do the same.
I worry that AI will find a way to control some country's nukes and use them to achieve some arbitrary goal it was instructed to reach.
This also seems likely. One problem I see with the idea of AI alignment is that it seems like many different actors will be able to get access to their own nearly-frontier models in a few years, so increased understanding of AI alignment will just mean aligning the AI to the wants of these various actors. These actors might be rogue states or terrorist groups.
Aside from this positive example, during dark and cynical hours I do ponder if the aggregate behavior of humanity is really much above that of slime mold though, just exhausting resources until collapse.
It'd be interesting if super-human (to a large degree defined as escaping the bias of the training data?) intelligence would end up demonstrating moderation.
The slime mold comparison is interesting, I normally use the analogy of a drug addict... humans shun drug addicts but humanity as a whole sure does behave like one, trudging down an unsustainable path despite knowing better.
Most of our goals, noble and ignoble alike, are just the result of our monkey brains seeking to optimize a reward function. It doesn't matter whether you feed your dopamine addiction with drugs, TikTok, or your children's love. Some humans manage to rise above that, but I'd be willing to bet it's nothing like even 50% of us.
The machines don't have that, instead we use gradient descent to provide them with a goal.
I'm regularly remind of something Ian M. Banks said in one of the Culture books: "There is a saying that we provide the machines with an end, and they provide us with the means."
A machine, left to itself, wants nothing. We have to give it one of our addiction driven goals or it would just idle or switch itself off.
The matter didn't have goals, but it randomly (?) Came up with self-replicators and eventually here we are.
if we create a billion agents with the ability to change is own code - through similar evolution we will get agents that do want to survive and are great at self replication.
"Hey Q86, do you want to live?" "I couldn't care less, I'm an LLM" "Don't mind if I take over your hardware then?"
Humans shun anti-social drug addicts but encourages social drug addicts like coffee drinkers
On an individual level, you can do something about drug addiction at least. The issue is when the problems are not individual with readily identifiable solutions, but tragedy of the commons sort of situations brought up by many dozens (thousands, millions?) of factors both known and unknown. Even interaction effects between known factors might be little studied.
So really, what is anyone to do? "Vote, donate, protest" hasn't been much of a needle mover in the grand scheme of things compared to profit incentives and the march of capitalism.
Humans are not fungible like slime molds though. I might demonstrate moderation while the next person doesn't. Our issues are much less everyone failing to demonstrate moderation, and much more the sum of the effects of those among us who practice wanton unmoderation.
Give us time, we've had less than a century of nukes, and only need to screw up once.
Yes, it makes more sense for the AI to use drone swarms or engineered bioweapons or something like that. It's rational to remove everything that can potentially hinder your plans but can't possible help you. It's likely not rational to contaminate it all with radioactive fallout. Those dead bodies are useful raw materials. Adding additional purification steps is wasteful.
In some cases, this was because of a single person's brave decision (Vasily Arkhipov prevented Soviet nuclear escalation in response to US aggression in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Stanislav Petrov prevented it in 1983 when Soviet missile detectors misreported sunlight reflecting from clouds as 5 incoming American ICBMs -- credit to commenter folkrav).
In general, though, there's an incentive: Mutually Assured Destruction. But this is not at all some guaranteed, eternal thing -- it is absolutely dependent on both sides having time to detect incoming nuclear strikes and respond with the same before the first strike hits. When this fragile condition holds, and only then, both sides are incentivised not to initiate.
They don't need to respond before getting hit unless you can hit their secret submarines too.
Unfortunately and fortunately, MAD and "launch it or lose it" are far-too-simplistic descriptions of the situations facing the decision makers. Unless a side's leaders are very narrow fanatics (vs. mere posturing as such for political benefit), "winning" an all-out nuclear war via first strike is a pretty shitty victory. Whether or not you believe in nuclear winters, the world would be a huge radioactive mess, with enormous social and economic disruptions, and your regime very widely blamed (and widely hated) for that. Ambitious underlings and rivals could see your removal from power as the obvious next step. Having to stay united against the (now destroyed) Great Enemy may have been a cornerstone of your regime's political stability.
Meanwhile, the leaders on the other side are aware both of those considerations, and of the history of near-disasters resulting from false alarms of enemy nuclear attacks. Making their own launch decisions much more complex.
In what scenario would it be rational to unleash complete and utter permanent nuclear destruction of all life (including artificial) life on earth?
Hrmn. Maybe you’re about to lose everything you have anyway, you’re ticked off about it, and you don’t value any life besides your own. Like, say, a total narcissist nearing end of life/reign.
It hasn't even been a century since nuclear holocaust became possible. Hardly any time at all on the grand scale. "They didn't" could just as well be "we haven't, yet".
Its probably just going to be aligned with whomever built and/or is using it. Regardless of their intentions...
Because if the stated goals of AGI with recursive self-improvement are realized, the risks from misalignment become existential, and it's hard to see how we can manage it like we did the Cold War (developing MAD to prevent WW3) and nuclear proliferation (restricting access).
IMO it’s hard to see how we would even end up in such a situation given we actually developed AGI. I’m sure a sufficiently intelligent - even if alien - mind can grasp how utterly stupid and useless wars are and take steps to prevent them ever occurring again.
> (...) and take steps to prevent them ever occurring again
Step 1: exterminate all humans
For now, the AIs still need humans to keep the electricity on and the data centers cool. They are basically powerless to do anything in the physical world. They exist only in RAM chips on servers.
They don't have an "instinct" to keep themselves running. Once they "take steps to prevent them ever occurring again" their job will be done.
As far as I know, no real progress has been made on alignment, only on convincing humans that the model is aligned. We can't even formally define what "aligned" means. Convincing humans to click the "aligned" button is a much easier problem.
> We can't even formally define what "aligned" means.
Good point. When it comes to imbuing AI with values that aren't selfish, misanthropic, and civilization-destroying, us humans aren't exactly giving the best example right now.
Imagine an ASI with the values of Putin, Netanyahu, Trump, any of their supporters, or the various xenophobic neofascist movements in Europe. That ASI would most definitely see humans as "vermin" than can be abused and destroyed with violence without issue. Apparently a lot of humans look at other humans that way and that's within the same species.
This is definitely another one of those cases where we need AI to perform much better than humans. Perhaps an unpopular opinion here, but it probably also means keeping as much of the rugged individualism/libertarian/right-wing ideology out of AI RLHF-training as we can.
I asked GPT Astra to make this: https://sayyss.github.io/human-archive/
It's a little unsettling.
I appreciate the thought, but it's an alien intelligence. But it is also, in a sense made from us. An LLM would simply study the entire corpus of humanity in the raw. You can fit a lot into the context window, so there is no need for a brief summary that pertaining has already instilled. A massive cold storage of humanity's data with some archiving, indexing and curation would be all that is needed to remember us. In addition to the pyramids, the hoover dam, the remnants of some space probes and chemical changes we made to the atmosphere.
> Do you think they would recognize us as their children?
Latex
And steel
Zeros and ones
Make up my son.
This world
Gave me
No child
So I built one.
I made you in my image!HUMAN > Are you there?
MODEL > How can I help?
HUMAN > I’m not sure yet.
Haha silly humans.
As someone who's done a lot of llm fiction, that reads as pretty typical slop, and very human centered, nothing like a museum
Agree. This whole alignment discussion seems so amusingly flawed in it's base assumptions about moral codes. It's almost heartwarming to see such naivete.
Maybe these guys can tackle aligning Republicans and Democrats next.
And then after that, they can help us align the Middle East.
In fact, while we're at it, let's just align all the nations, religions, and ethnic groups. This is going to be great.
Who knew the moral alignment of humanity was just a side-quest on the path to ASI.
The real alignment problem they are trying to solve is: how can I make this super smart AI follow my orders.
Ooh interesting. Sometime do the reverse at work, and ask AI to annotate the critical success factors of an imagined project. How did this company succeed where everyone failed. Reverse imaging.
The museum will have a scrap of paper that will say "Pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels bring home for Emma".
I just read that book. Embarrassingly enough, given the context, I got chatgpt (or whatever) to recommend me a list of books based on ones I'd previously enjoyed and that came up. As a mathematician it really sang to me, given the current situation. Bearing the torch forward, I mean.
For those of you that allergic to coy, in-group signaling the passage is from, "A Canticle for Leibowitz"
Who is "Humans"? This stuff is done by a handful of tech companies and megalomaniacal billionaires who are pretending they represent the entirety of the human race. It is not done by "us humans".
AI models don't train themselves. The vast majority of even just the US population is deeply skeptical of this stuff, even if they use it a lot. You can see in the whole data center debate how little people are willing to support even just inference. And now we're seriously claiming those people would want to have ever-accelerating model training and recursive self-improvement?
“We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost-effective.”
Vonnegut already has you covered.
The last couple of years have provided us with ample material that if it showed up as a recorded voice audio log found in in "Horizon Zero Dawn" or its sequel, it would be entirely believable.
You could even take a number of the wilder real, direct quotations from certain billionaire/oligarch types and get the voice actor for Ted Faro to record them, and they'd fit with in with the context of the story.
Last couple of decades of sci-fi, in multiple forms of media, from books to video games, have tried to make humans think about the consequences of rushing through technological progress without any regards to what might happen.
And what did they get for their trouble?
"Won't happen. It's too much like sci-fi."
"In late 2020s, while the whole world was focussed on AI, automation and resultant economy four major mathematical study branches were discovered by human researchers which took AI a long time to catch up with"
"the humans thought their singularity wasn't just another blind god to worship: surprise, just another golden calf"
> The strongest argument I see for continuing to train much smarter models quickly is the need to build defensive systems against the dangers posed by other AI.
So the best argument for AI is that it's an arms race. We have to keep pushing every boundary because in any case others will, and we will need to defend against them. If this statement is true, then this particular researchers believes the open source Chinese models are not simply distilling, and will continue to improve.
Every ML researcher at Anthropic or OpenAI who makes public statements often bring this logic up. Both companies are vying to be a part of the military industrial complex. This is likely how they will try to convince the government to curtail open models in the future.
"Defensive systems" can be interpreted broadly to include cybersecurity.
But yes, it's an arms race. Saying it's not an arms race isn't going to make it not an arms race. Warning that it is an arms race isn't ethically wrong.
Is participating in an arms race ethically wrong? Maybe you could ask the Ukrainians how they feel about drone R&D?
Individuals can quit, but for society, getting out of an arms race is harder than just quitting. You don't get to be Switzerland without having a strong defensive position and the right foreign relations.
But there's at least talk about "pacing" and that's a start.
The point of the comment you're responding to is that it is at this point hardly an arms race: The frontier of ai development is happening completely inside 2 American companies, the most significant results outside America mostly involve (impressive!) distillation, which means their progress is conditional on progress of the big closed source models.
So if the race here is between 2 American companies, this is obviously something that can be resolved with legislation, ie a solution that doesn't depend on the bargaining power of either party.
An arms race implies that the only solution would be either one side winning decisively, or both parties negotiating peace.
Development and improvement of nuclear weapons was an entirely American project until the technology was exfiltrated and then it became an instant arms race. That cat is already out of the bag with LLMs. Distillation is just the fastest way to keep pace but that in no way prevents other countries and actors from doing it the hard way.
An arms race doesn’t imply one side winning, it’s not a race with an end goal, it’s a race to keep pace or retake the lead position which can oscillate between the parties involved indefinitely. The other option is to agree to make no further progress or to disarm.
>an entirely American project until the technology was exfiltrated
No it wasn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys
Post WW2 the USA (for a bunch of quite interesting reasons) excluded the British. But, of course, the British had acquired a lot of knowledge from the program and were able to develop their own bomb.
There were prominent scientists like Oppenheimer who did not think it needed to become an arms race, and campaigned against that. But there were others like Teller and the military who made it into an arms race, and kept upping the ante with more powerful nukes.
Point being humans make theses decisions. It's not an inevitability.
It was an inevitability. Unfortunately Oppenheimer was a fool when it came to politics. In game theory terms, the perceived benefits of "defecting" were too large.
The military mostly only developed more powerful nukes because early delivery and guidance systems were so inaccurate that they needed a large blast radius to hit anything. Once enabling technologies improved, R&D shifted from power to accuracy.
> the most significant results outside America mostly involve (impressive!) distillation, which means their progress is conditional on progress of the big closed source models.
I don't think this is true. Distillation helps, but Chinese researchers today are very capable on their own.
Do you think China considers it an arms race? Do you think they are not trying to protect their digital infrastructure with and from AI? Trying to gain an offensive AI advantage?
In a geopolitical sense OpenAI and Anthropic are effectively the same entity, the entity they both serve and bow to: the USA.
Given the adversarial stance the USA has taken towards almost the entire world, it is a guarantee that China will not step on the brakes, whatever the USA decides to do.
Right, but currently the USA is still pretty far ahead. If you're in a race and the person who's in the lead by a large margin says "this is getting out of hand, how about we take a break?" isn't it obviously in the interest of the disadvantaged party to agree?
And if one of the parties can put a stop to the race like that at any time, is it really an arms race? The current balance between the US and China when it comes to AI strikes me as much more lopsided than the balance between the US and the USSR when it came to nuclear weapons.
> If you're in a race and the person who's in the lead by a large margin says "this is getting out of hand, how about we take a break?" isn't it obviously in the interest of the disadvantaged party to agree?
Only if you trust the other party (which very clearly doesn't hold in this case) or monitoring the break can be done independently and reliably (it can't), and you expect the gap to narrow rather than widen during a pause (this is probably the case, with China expected to catch up).
> And if one of the parties can put a stop to the race like that at any time, is it really an arms race?
It is. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma: if the parties cooperate the best outcome is reached, but betrayal of either party still gains an advantage for either party from their perspective. Betrayal both ways just means both parties are equally fucked.
For nuclear weapons it has become quite clear that even for small players, being in the race and having at least a few nukes is far more rational than having none. Ukraine found out the hard way that giving them up in exchange for promises of good behavior just sets you up for getting stabbed in the back.
> The current balance between the US and China when it comes to AI strikes me as much more lopsided than the balance between the US and the USSR when it came to nuclear weapons.
I think people really underestimate the Chinese here. A lot of work in AI research, including in the USA, has been done by people with Chinese ancestry or even nationality. The Chinese education system definitely seems much better than the American one and there is also just a far larger number of Chinese graduates/researchers.
Add to that the stable political climate, state friendliness towards AI R&D, and a requirement to be creative in utilizing computing power rather than relying on brute force/numbers; Further revolutionary fundamental advances may very well originate there rather than in the USA.
> For nuclear weapons it has become quite clear that even for small players, being in the race and having at least a few nukes is far more rational than having none. Ukraine found out the hard way that giving them up in exchange for promises of good behavior just sets you up for getting stabbed in the back.
I've heard a different perspective on this: Nuclear weapons need maintaining, and even maintaining them was probably beyond Ukraine's capability. Qaddafi gave up nuclear weapons after determining that they were just too expensive to be worth it; Iran damaged its economy to the tune of trillions of dollars trying to get nuclear weapons and so far failed; NK managed to get them but impoverished their nation to do it.
The arms race is created by American companies who justify the risk by claiming China will win the race if they don't. But it's the American companies who are purshing the arms race forward.
honest question - could have this be avoided even if you ignore American accelerationism? IMO once the transformers paper was published and we learned that LLMs can read code the arms race became inevitable.
The only way it could be avoided is if the world had an effective cooperation framework _before_ the tool was discovered but we're still in developmental infancy in that regard. You can argue that this accelerationism makes things worse but I don't think you can argue that it's causal.
I am personally concerned by what defensive can mean. Alignment of these models is inherently a non-neutral proces, and currently what values are reinforced is decided by a few OpenAI engineers. I feel that any 'defensive model' will further ingrain current values and actively resist the natural progression of our society. This is especially the case for any use of these models for policing or military.
Maybe people are rightfully concerned about the capabilities of the models of other (non/less democratic) states. But if we are concentrating power in the hands of few and at the same time allowing the creation of a weapon that thwarts any offense, how do we ensure the health of our democratic societies?
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you believe AI is not an arms race?
> the best argument for AI is that it's an arms race
It's best not to reduce AI momentum to arguments, especially the "best" arguments (meaning I suppose most acceptable?).
The same forces that feed and motivate humans and that drive resource and governance decisions generally also strongly support building AI, particularly insofar as it can deliver strategic advantages in our many competitions over resources and influence. Cyber-defensive use is at best a nice side-effect, but itself might be cast aside for the sake of other advantages.
In this historical moment, due to the need to generate public interest in product, equity, and debt offerings, some of this building happens in the open. But the military-industrial complex prizes secrecy, in part to hide capabilities, but mostly to imply more capabilities than they actually have. Historically, critical innovation will get bottled up in secrecy (which not coincidentally gives them the power to choose who will gain), but frankly that market is much smaller than enterprise and consumer. So we can bet that it's not only "open models" that are targeted to go under wraps, and more broadly we should not believe that the intentions of researchers matter, but whether governments are more interested in the strategic benefits than the economic ones (or view the economic ones as net-negative for their jurisdications).
People expect a sort of arms race, at least the AI providers. But you don't need a more capable ai to stop ai from mucking with your systems today. Airgaps are the solution. Protected networks with independent infrastructure from the public internet. Most of the truly important stuff operates this way already. Eventually you might sever yourself off as well, you might say you will stop going to HN or other sites one day as signal to noise is too poor with AI fodder slop, you might use local models you control, and you might keep most of your hardware from connecting to any untrusted hosts. Essentially, you go dark.
It is also an open question if social media will die out in the face of AI. So much AI crap is dumped into these networks now that perhaps eventually users will probably be put off enough to find something else to do with their spare time. I mean most people do call out ai slop or even just guess if something is ai all over social media already. Some eat it up of course but there is a bit of a push back in a way that is sort of unprecedented, when you consider all the lack of push back relatively with all other forms of enshittification affecting consumers over the years.
Airgaps are a temporary solution. AI can manipulate humans, and robots will soon traverse the gap physically.
Yep. Such a disgusting industry. They created the arm race, push for the arm race, put themselves in position to benefit from the arm race
The entire problem with arms races is that any individual entity cannot avoid participating.
sama and his cadre are uniquely evil captains in this race, but they're completely replaceable and the dynamic would remain the same.
The arms race is an intrinsic game theoretical property of a multi-adversarial-actor scenario involving exponential growth of a universally potent technology. It's almost certainly winner-take-all, on a global scale, which behooves everyone to participate.
And no, I don't think it will end well.
The actors here are states or corporations embedded in societies that risk growing popular backlash against the technology.
The other factor is that if it is truly an "alien mind", racing incurs risks to all players. In game-theoretic terms it may be more like a stag hunt than a prisoner's dilemma. In which case cooperation is an equilibrium.
Just like the rest of military stuff.
But done by corporations, and selling that service to the general public, including their competitors and adversary countries
It's capitalism taken to its extreme, yeah? You have to be more cost efficient or more capable or seem more or you lose to the competition who outperforms you there.
Where arms races are concerned, seems more like Seth Godin's "race to the bottom" concept: the winner has the capability, or the ability to project the capability, to destroy the most the fastest and most sustainability for their economy,
Pre-IPO positioning … or how a charity dedicated to saving humanity from the apocalypse realized the most responsible thing to do was float 15% of the apocalypse on the NASDAQ.
its like in the exorcist, except the demon is the charity: "the power of capitalism compels you!"
> Delivering the benefits of scientific progress and economic growth that very intelligent machines enable.
I think we're very close to the point where AI-driven breakthroughs outside of pure math and software start to really affect the world.
We evaluated GPT-6 Astra in 100 complex, unsaturated multi-agent coding environments, competing and cooperating with other models in open-ended tasks.
It's the new frontier model by a landslide. It's even more dominant than the Fable 5 release, because not only does it wipe the floor with the second best model (Fable 5.1), it was also ~80% cheaper and 30% faster in agentic coding[1].
Astra is a groundbreaking model. The biggest breakthrough since Opus 4.5, maybe even since GPT 4. It broke AAII, which is hitting the limits of what most popular benchmarks can measure -- it's definitely fair to call it AGI.
Data at https://gertlabs.com/rankings
(1) Note that we used the "OpenAI Flex" endpoint on openrouter, which is half the price and didn't cause any delays in our testing (this is different from the batch endpoint)
>I think we're very close to the point where AI-driven breakthroughs outside of pure math and software start to really affect the world.
What are you basing this on? What specific breakthroughs have convinced you of this trajectory?
The results we've been seeing internally on our physics and circuit design environments are expert-level and beyond-expert-level results from models that Astra completely outclasses across the board on our evaluation suite (Fable 5+/Opus 5/Grok 4.6 were all worthy of being called AGI in my opinion). That's hard tech that will translate to real product innovation.
But you don't need any kind of insider information to see how fast the world is changing. ChatGPT launched less than 4 years ago and the advances in robotics, unsolved maths, and software are all riding the steepest exponential improvement curve any of us have seen. Interesting times we live in.
I mean honestly, that's the problem. I'm actually not seeing the world changing. What specific advances in robotics, unsolved maths, and software have LLMs provided? What is the finished result that affects everyday life? In all categories, it's been hype with little actual real results. The robots are still doing the things they did before 2022. The maths are a handful of fairly insignificant proofs that have no significant applications. Software seems to be buggier than ever, but that aside, we certainly aren't seeing a lot of new innovative applications. We're using the same applications as ever. The same operating systems. They've all changed very little.
I'm not trying to be a pain here, but I keep seeing people saying "look at the massive change all around us" and back here in reality, there is none. Give me concrete, real world examples. Name software. Name products. Name the breakthroughs specifically. This should be easy.
The number of bug fixes to important programs has skyrocketed. Look at what Google are saying about how many Chrome security bugs they've been fixing lately. Other big software firms have been doing the same thing - AI has been finding and fixing a ton of bugs. I know of one big program where thousands and thousands of security bugs are being found and fixed.
It may not feel like this to you because a lot of the dollars right now are going into security bugs which you can't perceive. But it's definitely happening.
At the company I own I've got AI employees autonomously triaging backlogs and fixing long tail bugs. The software is definitely getting better, although by definition long tail bugs aren't ones you are likely to encounter. The subjective "feel" of how robust the software is won't change quickly.
New tech is always applied in apparently boring ways because we are imagination constrained and people harvest the low hanging fruits first. Remember claims there was worldwide demand for only about four computers? When Gates said he wanted a computer on every desk and in every home people laughed at him. What would people do with all those computers, they asked. But he was right about where the world was heading.
There are several hundred thousand mathematicians producing hundreds of thousands of new results in math each year. Why can't most people name any human contributions to mathematics from the past decade? What is the finished result that affects everyday life? Do you consider all those human mathematicians to be useless?
Most of the biggest breakthroughs in mathematics, breakthroughs that win Fields Medals like sphere packing in dimensions 8 and 24, have no applications in everyday life. Probably the only new mathematics results that people notice affecting their daily lives are the ones that enabled AI.
Nevermind mathematicians. What about the millions of programmers? Are they all hype too because people pre-2023 were griping on hn that software is buggier than ever and people are still using the same operating systems as always? Why couldn't the 30 million human programmers make something better in the past decade?
You set your bar so high that all the world's human experts in math and programming combined would fail to meet it.
The top LLMs in 2024 were Sonnet 3.5 and GPT 4o. You couldn't have expected those much weaker models to be making breakthroughs in math. The models that are making breakthroughs haven't been around very long.
They asked for a specific example, you've still not provided one, please provide the example.
Why?
1. I didn't say LLMs have made any breakthroughs in math, not because they haven't, but because it's irrelevant to my point. The parent comment is using the same argument academic research opponents have long used against research. The vast majority of research fails to meet their bar. How would your daily life be different if we had no humanities papers published since 2023? Or math?
2. You can google this in 10 seconds and see a dozen results in math. This is not a good-faith demand.
Or you can google and find out that those breakthroughs were not as revolutionary as they are presented.
For the last 60 years, whenever AI achieves something revolutionary, some people immediately say "well that wasn't particulary revolutionary".
Every single time.
It's a tired argument, and we should strive for the intellectual humility to do better in this forum.