US sanctions Italian hosting provider Autistici Inventati
home.treasury.gov154 points by unfocso 11 hours ago
154 points by unfocso 11 hours ago
>A/I’s cadre of radical hackers and tech developers provide a full spectrum of services – including encrypted chats and email, web hosting, secure video conferencing and streaming, anonymity shields, and a suite of other technological tools [...] while remaining anonymous, untraceable, and beyond the reach of the law.
ignoring the political leanings, this type of rhetoric will certainly be used to further the campaign against encryption, bolster the case for id verification requirements, etc. it paints the use of everyday normal tools: email, web hosting, etc. as inherently bad if they are private.
And it will have the effect of making these tools more popular, as it boldly proclaims how effective they are against even nation-state–level threats.
A/I mails weren't e2e encrypted.
not sure if that's relevant.
the announcement specifically calls out "encrypted chats and email" and implies that it's a bad thing because it is private
Well they restricted their services to users sharing their ideology and refused to collaborate after terrorist attacks, I don't think that here the issue is encryption here.
i know you have strong feelings about this, because you have over 10 comments on this submission, but i'm talking about the general rhetoric of the message (as i quoted), not specific to a/i or any left/right politics.
the general language used in this announcement is undoubtedly anti-encryption and anti-privacy. it just so happens that this time the rhetorical device is terrorism instead of protecting children.
I have seen antifas in action during the Yellow Jacket protests, and they did everything possible to turn the movement into a violent one.
I saw them come with hammers to unseal the pavement and throw it at the police, which was forced to send tear gas as a result, leading to an evacuation of what was a peaceful protest.
There are many other similar violent actions by this group, recently they killed a man in France in daylight. One of the presumed murderer, was identified by the police as the aid of an MP who was the head of an Antifa violent militia. Those people then said that it was ok to kill him as he was a "nazi" (only noun they seem to know).
So yeah, sorry but have you considered not supporting terrorists with your encrypted service? I'm sure that it would help a lot the cause of encryption and privacy if such providers acted responsibly. It sounds like a school shooter who complains that his second amendment rights are not respected.
So, you must support AWS and MS getting sanctioned for supporting the IDF, which has committed many more acts of terror and far worse forms of it. Right?
Eliminating all rights in the name that one person may be bad seems like a slippery slope especially one filled with anecdotes instead of sources.
That's probably the point of it?
"We're murdering people and they have the audacity to organise against us"!
What the US government is doing here is a perversion of justice. Anyone running web services critical of those in control of the US government should be extremely concerned.
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If the US government can designate their ideological opponents as terrorists without due process or any real justification, then nobody is safe.
Don't forget, with the alleged drug boats to the south, this government claims anyone they designate a terrorist is immediately a valid target for lethal military action.
And then war-crime/murder the helpless survivors with a "double tap" strike.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-the-law-says-abou...
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Who is the leader of Antifa?
Does a charge and conviction mean that this action is good or morally justified? If so then your issue with the feds designating Juggalos as a hybrid gang would be contradicted.
This action follows the administration's established pattern of trying to tie political dissent in the US to unrelated foreign actors (often the Kurdish PKK) so that they can lay the legal footing to prosecute Americans as being actors under the control of "Foreign Terrorist Organizations"
That's a silly rubric. Loosely organized groups have cells with leaders, not a single one.
That specific Antifa chapter's cell leaders can be found in the link above.
The KKK didn't have a single leader either after WWII, it was distributed chapters. So does that mean they weren't a terrorist group anymore?
And the Juggalo fans didn't coordinate to go riot / cause violence, not the same as either of those.
How is membership or leadership determined? How is a cell determined in this case?
In the case of the Klan (which you conveniently bracket to only after WW2) it, in fact was an organization with a single "Imperial Wizard" at the helm before being broken up in the 20's. The "distributed chapters" (themselves organizations with membership roles and defined leadership) were only "distributed" after the national organization was dissolved to bow out of a legal battle with the IRS.
There absolutely exist fans of ICP who have coordinated to cause violence, crime, and mayhem. (Though I don't believe that people should be prosecuted or persecuted for enjoying a goofy rap rock band)
The leaders of the Klan are well known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaders_of_the_Ku_Klux_Klan
That doesn't disagree with what I said.
After WWII they were distributed chapters (Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Invisible Empire, Imperial Klans of America, National Knights, etc.)
Those later leaders are only leaders of that chapter/cell, not a single leader.
Distributing your hate does not make you immune is my point.
> After WWII they were distributed chapters (Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Invisible Empire, Imperial Klans of America, National Knights, etc.)
Right, terrorist groups with organizational structure and national leadership, spawned from the original KKK. We're confused about the national organization which you seem to be referring to, because "anti fascist" is not a group.
It’s the rubric the government is using here: Trump designated the mythical centralized organization as a terrorist threat.
> And we all saw the "summer of love" in 2020. Personally I want to see more accountability.
I presume you mean starting with accountability for the police riots? State organized mayhem is much more of a pressing problem than violence by individuals - it's exactly the coordination dynamic you've invoked, but at an even larger scale.
Witness: we already have straightforward avenues of accountability for individuals caught engaging in violent acts while protesting - they're simply crimes already written down, enforced, and prosecuted every day. While state-supported violence, even with open and shut video evidence (eg lines of police marching down a street and slashing every car's tires), gets handwaved away as some kind of perversely necessarily official action. The former is eminently legible to the justice system, while the latter is basically illegible. Never mind how the far right terrorist contingent has now found an official home in federal "law enforcement" where they're encouraged to summarily execute uppity women and 2A enthusiasts.
It's laughable to call that an "antifa cell", especially as they're abusing terrorism charges to send someone away for life for moving zines.
We have white-nationalist groups actually organizing and training. Shipping in Khaki clad warriors in box trucks to shout slurs and intimidate people.
We have videos of said groups doing weapons training like the Al Qaeda training videos of the 2000s.
Antifa? Your primary source is one of the greatest abortions of justice we've seen this decade.
> they're abusing terrorism charges to send someone away for life for moving zines.
You can make anything sound idiotic if you simplify it enough. They're trying to send someone away for hiding evidence.
Using your logic you could say that someone arrested for shooting someone is being put away for moving their index finger.
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Do you have to do the "USA and democracies and the West are evil actually" thing here? At least get an aged account.
This is the same government that called Alex Pretti a terrorist after executing him in the street
Certainly not a terrorist
Certainly not an angel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42mpmH0G0Dw
> Certainly not an angel
If that's punishable by death, there'll be about ten people left. And Dolly died yesterday.
Should we also ask the Saudis what drawings to punish by beheading or the Taliban which writings to punish by stoning?
Declaring a group of "hackers" as global terrorists? Mark off that spot on your Cyberpunk Dystopia Bingo cards.
It's not new.
It's not a statement that they're continuing to do exactly the same as before. The people publishing this piece of propaganda at least want to present it as new, which is thus a new situation and so rightly reported as news.
granted when I fire up Cyberpunk 2077 nowadays I'm not sure if I'm playing a computer game or a documentary
considering the state that cyberpunk was in on it's release lead to so much backlash that Sony and other digital storefronts allowed unconditional full refunds as the developers knowingly shipped out unbuggy untested garbage, I would say you also have a starring role in that documentary by supporting cdprojektred. Might be a game, I respect myself a little too much to engage with it though
US sanctioned ICC, Francesca Albanese and a lot of other people who simply tell the truth.
The United States may still have power, but they no longer have any credibility and no longer deserve any respect, neither they nor their zionist partners
Really best for the US to get rid of the zionism ties. I'm fine with US imperialism, which actually benefits us, not this bs where we spend all our money and diplomatic strength on some other country.
Supporting allies like this by supplying weapons is is one of the main ways the us projects military strength abroad and the situation with Israel shows how that can actually be counterproductive by escalating hostilities.
If you don't want the us to waste money on that you probably actually shouldn't want the us to engage in "imperialism" at all.
The problem with Israel is we do anything they want without getting anything comparable in return. And they control both our parties. It's not like this in Ukraine or the Asian Pacific.
> US sanctioned ICC, Francesca Albanese and a lot of other people who simply tell the truth.
The US doesn't sanction the ICC and those involved with the ICC like Francesca Albanese just because of what they say. The US sanctions are primarily due to what the US views as ICC jurisdictional overreach targeting US and US allies.[0]
Francesca Albanese does from the looks of it appear to be fairly antisemitic as well, they have made many statements indicating they believe many common antisemitic conspiracy theories at a minimum in addition to statements that appears to be justifying terrorism.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
The ADL has a whole page[1] listing examples of her supposed antisemitism but it basically seems to just be examples of her criticising Israel. I guess the ADL considers that to be the same thing but it is pretty unpersuasive unless you think every criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitism.
1: https://www.adl.org/resources/article/francesca-albanese-her...
>Francesca Albanese does from the looks of it appear to be fairly antisemitic as well, they have made many statements indicating they believe many common antisemitic conspiracy theories at a minimum in addition to statements that appears to be justifying terrorism.
lmao no she does not she reported a well substantiated set of claims and provided plenty of evidence. Sadly some Jewish individuals and entities, mainly Zionists tarnish the rest of us jews. But no, telling the truth about bloodthirsty Zionists is not antisemitism. It stopped being "muh cunspirucy thiory" when it became clear how much they loved and worked with Epstein.
Very strange to decide to only supply a communications system to people ideologically aligned with one. That seems like it would make one stand out to an undesirable degree, and it makes me wonder whether these groups actually do this, or whether they're setting others up. If this is correct I almost whether they're going after something set up by the Italian government.
Still, it seems like this would likely to be protected under the US first amendment, and it would probably be reasonable to bring legal action in the US to avoid silly stuff happening in Europe, when this in inevitably used to send goons and annoying infiltrators across the sea to Italy and Europe.
It’s fairly common, given the presence of Disroot and Riseup. The problem for political groups is that they can’t necessarily trust non-aligned hosts not to betray them. A warrant is one thing, you have to comply regardless, but non-aligned hosts may hand over data upon request even if there is no warrant.
Yeah, but it is possible to make distributed systems.
I've written up a little toy in Erlang where you have lots of connections to peers and send dummy messages, all of the same size, to all your peers continuously and then, because of this, you can obviously send a message to whoever you like without anyone being able to know to whom you sent it. With a bit of extra delay you can add retransmission, and then you can have huge networks. Complete resistance to traffic analysis.
The only thing you need to accept to have this kind of security is to accept that message timing might be 1/s, or 0.1/s, but for things like e-mail that isn't a problem at all.
My system is not done. I had intended to finish it if ChatControl 2.0 passed, but since it didn't, and there's upon that a war on I didn't put it out, and I thought it was a bad idea to popularize this kind of thing since there was a war on, but it's quite straightforward. Many here could probably write something like it.
There are plenty of P2P and anonymous collaboration tools out there, but the problem for these groups is that members will use insecure tools unless they are as convenient and capable as what they are used to. This is the same reason that the government constantly screws up its own opsec. Nontechnical people in any group are a serious problem for maintaining security.
(This is also why law enforcement concerns about encryption are overblown.)
Yes, but then you have to accept that they can't be part of a group that needs security.
If they aren't willing to do things correctly, not be lazy etc., and you tell them that this means that adversaries will be able to pinpoint them, and pinpoint you and everybody else, and they don't express that they're going to take the effort to be reasonable, then maybe you shouldn't talk to them.
True. If you look at the average person who gets involved in radical politics, many often have issues sticking to a strict security regime. I think this may be why “black bloc” groups and the like are normally smaller splinter groups within the larger movement. Garden variety protestors, activists, and local organizers are probably fine using something like Signal.
They are splinter groups because they are violent cowards who use mainstream protests (that might actually have a shot of convincing people of something) as a meat shield for their vandalism.
Minneapolis showed us the way. Sandwich guy showed us the way.
The civil rights movement showed us the way.
Black bloc is embarrassing and associated with the consistent failures of post 60s left wing bubble politics.
The most obviously incompetent right wing government in the United States in years, and we are talking about black bloc? How about getting someone capable to make an argument against them instead of resorting to street tactics - literally the one thing this administration is salivating for as it would offer them an opportunity at mainstream redemption.
Left wing politics is truly so depressing. At this point I would respect a movement that openly argued/modeled a path for blue state secession more than the multitude of left wing degenerates who seem to have gotten their civics from V for Vendetta.
I mean, you’re not wrong, but that’s not really on topic.
POSIWID applies to political groups as well. Real change would require hard work, vision, and group discipline. We don’t do that here!
Doesn't that scale up terribly? If everyone has 100 friends and is constantly pinging them every second, you're just flooding the internet with junk.
Yes, but it's fine.
If you receive 10,000 messages per second, that's nothing. That means that you can have 10,000 people online simultaneously with 1 message per second and 100,000 people online simultaneously with 1 message every ten seconds even in the version where there is no retransmission.
American companies have contested warrants have they not? The jump from request to warrant is not the major hurdle.
Imo people often make the wrong tradeoff here. If the government really wants something jurisdictional questions will not stop them. You're actually inviting them to just steal it at that point.
Better to keep things in the US where there will at least be a clear paper trail. And instead of wasting money on non-aligned infra budget for a half decent lawyer. American companies and citizens will have an easier time holding the American government accountable than "non-aligned" hosts. The current administration in particular is routinely embarrassed in the courts.
Sometimes I read about left wing civic groups and their privacy efforts and it feels delusional. You would think many of them would relish a paper trail of persecution and the publicity of a victorious court battle. The US government will not be deterred because you are hosting something in Europe or your homegrown service. It's really a bit of a joke to think so.
Plus what do you think is going to happen in two years? It feels like now is the time to lean into being on the shit list (if you can manage it - most of them are so ineffective they barely even register) so you can benefit when the tables turn in two years.
To be fair, most US companies aren’t particularly sympathetic to radical politics, and many will cave in with only a little pressure. There may also be concerns of a secret FISA warrant.
The downside of hosting overseas is that you’re exposing yourself to the full NSA toolkit, without the usual fig leaf of legal protection.
Dark web P2P is probably the best option.
You forget that a portion of the radical left truly believes that there won’t be an election.
Imo the second is clearly worse than the first.
The last point simply highlights their delusion. It's like alien invasion preppers level of marginal. Anyone associating with such people is simply making a fool of themselves. It will not be surprising some subterfuge may be planned. The mainstream already pretty clearly sees this coming. It's not like violence is particularly shocking in America. But the idea you will do anything to make it meaningfully better by wetting your pants about it over dark web P2P ahead of schedule is simply delusional. Meal team six behavior is something to laugh at, not emulate.
This is why it's best to just ignore these topics. If the motivation is coming from such a tiny, goofy segment of the population it doesn't really merit discussion.
Anyway thanks for the back and forth. I did enjoy your perspective.
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What terrorist attacks?
Have you read the link? No?
Oh I thought you meant like a real terrorist attack.
Terrorism doesn't need to target directly persons, cutting power to 45,000 homes or sabotaging rail networks is terrorism in EU laws.
Thanks for confirming that the antifa movement has no problem with terrorism anyway.
Every announcement from these psychos reads like a missive from the Ministry of Peace
Well this is concerning, hopefully they aren’t planning to go after Disroot and Riseup as well. The ability to access secure hosting shouldn’t depend on political orientation.
Damn I had my first email account with them more than 25 years ago. Nice to see they are still around fighting the good fight.
The US govt can go fuck itself, with their agenda in which antifascism has become the big bad monster to replace the evil terrorists of the Bush era. Fight against fascism is still a point of pride in Italy.
Why US financial sanctions against an EU-based non-profit? Making it harder to accept money from the US does not seem like quite the right tool. Are they known to be primarily sponsored by US individuals, or depending on other service providers with US presence?
It means no use of Visa or American Express bank cards, which are US companies.
I think SWIFT transactions are under US control.
No use of Apple, Google, Amazon, AirBnB, Uber, or other US-based services.
Eg, "Canadian judge Kimberly Prost is unable to use credit cards or access everyday services in what she calls an attack on the independence of the judiciary " - https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/2025/12/12/its-surreal-u...
Every day it seems a little weirder how many of these other countries are apparently passively tolerating the US/Google/Apple/etc-centric nature of parts of their internal economy.
The US had THAT much trust, not necessarily influence, which just went down the drain.
And, of note, online payments across EU countries is most often done with American payment methods. Most Chinese companies only take US-based payment methods.
Such a sanction really narrows down where they can buy online — it's not just the US that becomes off-limits.
Antifa to me has always been the guys who beat up skinheads. I wonder who they're emailing?
It is an interesting read, because of how odd an attack it is. The rationale itself is technically not new and 'hacker known as 4chan' is a meme for a reason.
However, it may be worthwhile to consider those sanctions in light of Bessent's recent conference, where he failed to deliver on his own overpromise of economic d-day, which, reasonably, a lot of professionals interpreted as Chinese banks sanctions.
In other words, while notable and maybe even worrying in terms of precedent it is apparently trying to set up ( because it does ), compared to a broader failure to deliver on a rather massive threat suggests this is weird distraction and not the main course.
As long as the same lens is applied equally to far-right and white supremacist groups, then this is fine.
This question is rhetorical with this administration, however.
We all know it won't be, so it's not fine. Because they've been told to 'stand back and stand by' and now they work in ICE: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/2026/01/ice-proud-boys-...
You know you don't have to always accept government overreach under the guise of "fairness." It's not fair, it was never fair, why are you expecting it to be fair?
Just look at how the US treats "ecoterrorists" versus white supremacist; or if you want historical examples look at how the FBI treated labor groups versus fascists ones in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s (no need to worry about the decades after, they killed enough leaders to stop leftwing voices in the US).
Labor groups up to and including in the 60s were fiercely anti-immigration [1], and wanted to expand laws like the Chinese Exclusion act. You would call them white supremacist today. But as you say, the FBI did its job, and eventually the unions accepted immigration, just like capital wanted. Now Amazon can release a study showing diversity impedes unions [2], and Wikipedia helpfully summarizes it to give the opposite impression [3], while the FBI can better spend its time investigating "It's okay to be white" as terrorism [4], libeling whites with fabricated extremism cases [5], and taking instruction from the ADL [6].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policies_of_Americ...
[2] Whole Foods' heat map says lower rates of racial diversity increase unionization risks - https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-tracks-unionizat...
[3] Factors including racial diversity, proximity to other unions, poverty levels in the surrounding community, and calls to the NLRB were named as contributors to "unionization risk." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon
[4] Ohio universities involve FBI in investigation of ‘It’s okay to be white’ and white nationalist group’s postings on campus - https://www.thefire.org/news/ohio-universities-involve-fbi-i...
[5] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/15/biden-accus...
[6] Did you know ADL trains every new FBI agent on their role as protectors of the American people and the Constitution? - https://x.com/ADL/status/472384478464061441
"You would call [groups from a time when white supremacy was widespread and socially acceptable] white supremacist today" is not the gotcha you seem to think it is.
It's not a "gotcha", it's correcting the GPs deceptive contrast of labor groups versus white supremacists, when they were one and the same.
They contrasted ecoterroists versus white supremacists now, and labor vs fascists in the past.
If you insist on nitpicking, I'll spell it out for you:
> look at how the FBI treated [white supremacist] labor groups versus fascists ones in the 20s [..] no need to worry about the decades after, they killed enough [white supremacist?] leaders to stop [white supremacist??] leftwing voices in the US
So the fact that the labor groups the FBI targeted were white supremacist by today's standards makes those sentences complete nonsense.
The total attention given to this is a little bit goofy given the small sums involved. According to Autistici Invenati's costs page[1], the total they spend every year is €20,300. It's strange to see it trumped up as anything like a major entity.
Rose City Antifa: Oregon gets a shout out. Seriously.
While they are not directly in trouble, this is yet one more reason to have a sovereign financial system in Europe. Especially a direct competitor for the credit card networks (VISA, Mastercard) and SWIFT. These are the immediate threats.
Where's "antifa" headquarters, exactly? Who's their leader? And who's 2nd in command?
That always reminds me of a graffiti I saw once, which simply commanded "Anarchy!"... the irony of which got a bit lost on the artist I think...
having a hierarchy like that would make the group easier to deal with. similar groups use cell structures or leaderless approaches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance
An organization doesn't have to be centralized, just like communists weren't. This is a lazy argument.
The communists were very centralized. They held world governments. Even the American communists were centralized.
There was a national Communist Party as well as several Cominterns. Communists are pretty big on democratic centralism.
"Several cominterns" - each country had its communist party, meaning a certain level of decentralization.
"Comintern" means "Communist International"--meant to guide the various national parties.
Besides, I don’t usually think of individual national governments as the proper level at which something qualifies as decentralized.
An organization does have to have a clear set of shared plans, toward which it takes a program of coordinated action. That's what an organization is. It's about being organized. A bunch of random individuals who share some opinions, occasionally use similar tactics, may cooperate sporadically, and describe themselves using some term or gravitate toward certain symbols, is not an organization. And it's not clear that "antifa" even does most of those things.
Nor are a bunch of small groups a single "organization" if they don't have some kind of ongoing, systemematic structure for coordinating their actions.
I'm an atheist. That doesn't make atheism an organization.
What do you think _soviet_ are
A unit of organization that was quickly made obsolete and purely symbolic during the era of Stalinism
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Copy-pasting my comment to the other poster making the same point:
"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.
"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.
It's false, the US has banned international right-wing groups such as the Jewish Defense League.
With respect, this is false. JDL members were certainly charged with crimes. They were not charged with belongimg to the JDL, since that would be a first amendment violation.
There are interesting reports on state.gov describing the difficulties the JDL caused with the Soviet Union, eg.:
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v13...
Note that at no point do they discuss banning the JDL or charging members with belonging to the JDL.
I've remember news and reporting about neo-Nazis (adjective) but not a lot of "the Neo-Nazi international terrorist organization..." (singular noun).
Seems like an ideology, not an organization.
If you look at the Treasury wording here: "so-called antifascist groups (“Antifa”)" they do this weird thing where they refer to groups, plural, but give it a singular noun as if it's one big global thing.
And that seems very intentionally misleading compared to, say, "self-described Antifa groups" or such.
It all seems consistent with right-wing/American-evangelical victimization propaganda techniques going back to talk radio in the 80s.
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In America, probably the KKK? They do in fact have a leader and a second in command (not that I know or care who).
"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.
"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.
Antifa is a bit more radical than classic leftist politics, advocates for and commits violence, at least in my country (France).
The lack of designated leader doesn't mean that they get a pass and can continue to commit homicide attempts against their designated ennemies, or journalists they don't like.
It's part of their strategy, just like they manage to have 10 persons to light up and throw a molotov cocktail during protests to avoid personal responsibility.
European politics are very different than American politics, and I am not terribly familiar with them so I won't weigh in.
Antifa in the US is "guys with a Signal group chat who do black bloc stuff."
Beware of patterns that scale and accelerate.
A universal financial blocklist that can be added to or retracted algorithmically is a great, inexpensive way of murdering people you don't like.
There is no legal limit to the number of (if you will) seats on the blocklist, nor meaningful legal limit to how often, or for what reason, people are put there. Cheaper than Shaheds, with much greater range.
The real weapon of the future, there for the grasping.
The Smithsonian might be next… https://folkways.si.edu/this-machine-kills-fascists-sticker/...
This means that all involved will have their google/apple/whatever account blocked and revoked, correct?
No more services from the USA.
Their websites seems to be based on gandi.net, and this document is threatening secondary sanctions. Will be interesting to check the fallout.
I hope the guys will be able to scramble and move registrars and backup all their data from any service they use personally.
Good luck.
I refuse to believe that people throwing paint on factory windows are terrorists.
The 2001 AUMF (authorization of us of military force) needs to be repealed so that these "special designations" are no longer allowed and war has to be declared. The US federal government will still perform the same acts but at least after the 2001 AUMF is repealed they'll have to go back to secret assassinations. Instead of flouting it in semi-public with the executive disposition matrix system.
>Rose City Antifa also used A/I Collective tools and services to disseminate doxing lists and release illegally obtained personal information of Federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement, along with calls for targeted attacks on ICE agents in the streets and “in their homes.”
That's what DHS does. They dish it out but can't handle it when it's done to them. Cowards.
Dishing it out but not accepting it being done to them is exactly what it means to be a monopoly on legitimate violence. When two parties are dishing it out separately to each other, and one of them calls themselves the government, this is called a civil war or at least a terrorist insurgency.
ICE has been harassing, imprisoning, and murdering people for no legitimate reason.
Willy-nilly terrorist designation serving as an anything-goes legal loophole is an import from Israel. It goes against all American and British legal traditions and it needs to die.
PKK is an actual terrorist organization, with half a century history of bombing shopping malls and hospitals and responsible for the death of tens of thousands of civilians. If any organization perpetrated even a single of their attacks on US soil or EU, nobody would dare to talk about them as freedom fighters (perhaps instead NATO's 5th article would get invoked and a global war on terrorism would be declared and all perpetrators would be chased down to the depths of hell, until their deaths put on display alongside a Mission Accomplished banner) but since they're bombing Turkish malls and killing Turkish school teachers, f*ck'em, let's put PKK in the same category as Green Peace.
Imagine a 50000-strong armed Native American organization started bombing supermarkets and schools in DC and New York, kidnap and assassinate big-name businessmen, in addition to engaging in cross border guerrilla warfare and say they won't yield until US yields back all historically Native American lands back to them so they can create a new country. Would you put them in the same basket as Antifa or Green Peace? Or how would you feel Russian and Chinese media making ceaseless woke reporting and framing them as freedom fighters and US soldiers and police as oppressors and the root cause, while indirectly bankrolling them and providing them with platform of operations and weapons, and use all of this (their support or protections for the group, and the woke propaganda machine/condemnation of US gov acts) as a political bargaining chip at every chance.
>half a century history of bombing shopping malls and hospitals and responsible for the death of tens of thousands of civilians
That's still a few orders of magnitude fewer than number of Armenian, Assyrian and Greek civilians killed by the Turks, but nobody's calling for Turkey to be designated a terrorist organization.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
But at this point "To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world" is seemingly more relevant.
US sanctions all kinds of completely non-threatening individuals based purely on ideology and attempts to silence their speech, and discourage them from making the world a better place. So this may be yet another such thing. By itself, being sanctionned by the US doesn't say anything about the person or entity.
Eg. ICC-EO14203
What a petty country, sanctioning judges of international criminal court, or UN workers, as if that means anything. ICC gets authority from countries that formed this court not from appointed judges. If you want to fight the court, you have to sanction entire countries. Sanction the entire assembly of state parties. You sanction one judge or one prosecutor, we elect another. It's not just petty, it's idiotic.
Sounds like the Trump administration is looking to shift the news away from Iran and Ukraine and back to the things that work for its voters: immigration (see the visa thread also on the main page) and antifa.
Expect more of this until the midterms…
Is antiantifascism profascism?
Rose City 'Til I Die. Go pound sand fascists. Traitors to the Constitution.
Siamo tutti antifascisti!
Not in the tech industry, apparently. As a 50 year old, it's really shocking to see what I thought were just solid, solid underpinnings of a modern liberal society like "white nationalists are bad and should be ostracized" eroding.
too true, but "dovremmo essere tutti antifascisti!" doesn't have much ooomph to it unfortunately.
Why can't capitalism be judged on its own merits? Why do we need the state to get involved in shaping hegemony?
You know the answer. There’s a reason the state considers antifa a threat.
Because those goons kept showing up to otherwise peaceful protests and turning them into "fiery but mostly peaceful" riots by beating people up and destroying random property. Americans wanted them gone.
Now, what the current Trump administration labels as Antifa might be different from the actual Antifa groups in ~2015-2022. But it's kinda also the Democratic party's fault for not taking a harsh stance against the rioters, instead letting Republicans take credit.
I think a lot of this is revisionist. In most protests, what happens is the police get involved. The police don't know to to de-escalate anything, so surprise surprise - riot!
If you go back and look at the BLM riots, the police were there well before any rioting started. Having poorly trained people with guns, tear gas, and rubber bullets trying to "control a crowd" is a sure-fire way to start a riot. It doesn't help that BLM was protesting the police. Which, as you can imagine, means the police went into it pissed off.
Of course the blame is distributed, but we can't ignore the fact that the police are a major instigator of violence in protests.
Capitalism "needs to win", but there's no way it can without being ruthlessly forced upon people. Heck even forcing it is just delaying the inevitable decline/crash.
Certain elements of Capitalism (cough AI) seem to simultaneously be speedrunning its decline and keeping it on life support. What strange times we find ourselves in.
I think that we had had enough time to judge communism on its own merits. Why do you want to try again?
Let's stick to the topic please. Don't dilute the investigation with random detours.
What has "judging capitalism on its merits" to do with the US declaring an Antifa SaaS provider terrorists?
You read the A/I org webpage, right?
> A/I (Autistici/Inventati, pronounced [au’tistiʧi]-[iŋ’vɛntati], or [iŋvɛn’tati]) was born in 2001 from an encounter of individuals and collectives of the autonomous anticapitalist movement interested in technology and active in the digital rights struggle.
Capitalism has been judged on its own merits, and been found to be a ridiculously simplistic, unworkable system that tends toward oligarchy, massive inequality, and authoritarianism.
The state needs to get involved to protect the unworkable system.
Maybe you are right, at least partially, I can identify many of its flaws myself. However for example my homeland has tried communism/socialism, and went through brief periods of anarchy, and the same can be told about all. My family has lost a lot to all of these experiments (including the current capitalist one), but stability and modest prosperity are the best, and anarchism is as far from that as it gets, especially as represented by the Antifa.
Even the communist regime persecuted anarchism. (though they supported it when it was not at home, as a destabilizing tool)
> the same can be told about all.
Because the idea that there's one simple ideologically-based system that's going to solve all problems is simplistic.
Markets are useful, but that doesn't mean that societies should be organized around entirely around markets and private ownership of almost everything as the primary governing principle.
The US has really taken this to an extreme, to the point that it has legally ruled that "money is speech", which essentially guarantees an oligarchy.
Treating capitalism and communism/socialism as two sides of a binary choice is a propaganda trick, basically.
Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics.
(though unconstrained capitalism is not ideal)
> unworkable system
? unconstrained pure capitalism has bad effects, but it is not unworkable unlike say pure communism applied at scale larger than a family
> Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics.
No, it demonstrably doesn’t. The countries that have the least problems with the issues I mentioned are ones that combine market economics with socialist approaches.
In many ways, those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism.
Also, the US’s historical use of socialism and communism as a bogeyman is starting to look less defensible as China succeeds while the US is failing, and actually doing all the immoral things it used to accuse its opponents of.
Beyond parody
Boomers really hate their parents. The Greatest Generation didn't raise them well
I’d do my Gen X duty and trash them both, but we are turning into old people every time I look around. Not just literally, but the mindset. Our mating call is “We drank from hoses and we survived!”
That said, I think a true Greatest Generation would not consist so heavily of guys who sit in the car while their wives grocery shop.
They don’t hate their parents. Their parents defeated fascism but brought some of the war home with them.
Emotional suffering is a memetic disease, an information disease spread by behavior; it makes people sick. The output of one integrated system becomes the input of another, like LLM distillation. Think of a war, or any emotional state, as a packet of information, that spreads like a virus, and infects and modifies the structure of the limbic system, thus transferring the emotional state, the structure of the limbic system, or LLM, from one system to another.
War made the Greatest Generation sick, and because they didn’t get treatment after fighting the sickness of fascism, they brought it home and it made their kids sick. When people are emotionally sick they don’t feel good, and that makes them emotionally inward focused, to the point they don’t have the capacity for much empathy towards others. This makes people appear selfish. It made a whole generation selfish. Because the virus affects the mind, it affects perception of reality and self; people don’t realize they’re sick.
Same thing is happening in Palestine; a group of people who were treated inhumanely are treating another group of people inhumanely. It’s a sickness. An actual sickness.
Boomers were split nearly evenly between Trump and Harris in 2024. Gen X were the ones that went strongly for Trump (around 54% to 44%).
Millennials were for Harris (51-47%), and Gen Z were for Harris as strongly as Gen X were for Trump (54-43%).
What did it for Trump was voter turn out.
Boomers were around 50 million voters with around 75% turnout, but because they only favored Trump by a percent or two they only gave Trump a small plus of around 750k votes.
Gen X had around 70% turnout for their 50-55 million voters, and with their strong support of Trump they have him a big plus of around 3710k.
Millennials had 60-75 million voters but around 60% turnout. The lower turnout cut their voting numbers to not much more than Gen X which combined with their Harris support not being as strong as Gen X's Trump support means their Harris plus was about 1510k.
Gen Z 40-50 million voters both only around 50% turnout. Their strong Harris support somewhat made up for that and they gave her a plus of around 2470k.
If Gen Z had merely upped their turnout to 60%, like Millennials, that would have turned the election around.
The Greatest Generation was just flattery propaganda that you use to manipulate people. It'a a bit complicated, but Boomers didn't actually have real functional control over the actions of the USA until about the mid 90s when they ascended to business, political control, and electoral impact. Yes, even though their parents were really The Most Awful Generation, the boomers kind of are left the useful idiots holding the bag in many ways as they were majorly psyopped all their life to similar but different degrees and for different purposes as the millennial, gen z, and Gen Alpha were abused and brainwashed through social media and "TV".
What you ascribe to boomers is really the fault of the most awful generation. For context, the oldest boomers were only 22 during the civil rights era and the youngest were 12. You were never told that and you never noticed it, did you?
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In two years and 2 months regime change will swing it back.
And then it will swing back again... some say the two-party system is simply broken
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Indeed, there's no such organization. Is this supposed to be some sort of gotcha?
Compare to: "You told me The Illuminati [worldwide ancient conspiracy] was a myth, but behold, I have proof of The Illuminati [card game] right here my hands! CHECKMATE, SKEPTICS!"
Ha ha, but no, you weren’t. You were told that there’s no such thing as an organized centralized group called Antifa. You were told that it’s an ideological approach to fighting fascism, not a terrorist organization. You were told that labeling antifa as a terrorist organization was going to be an excuse for bringing sanctions against anyone Trump’s administration happens to dislike.
And all of that is true.
I believe the talking point was "antifa is a myth", quite a few politicians parroted that.
And being a loosely organized group does not grant you some sort of protection from your actions.
It's not a loosely organized group, it's a label applied (by the right) to many different groups with little to no coordination operating in entirely different places
It may have a different connotation in the US than in Europe. In US media I’ve only heard the term being used recently, in Europe it’s been around for decades.
In Europe, “Antifascist” is a label that people groups use to describe themselves, similar to how other describe themselves as patriot or pacifist. Someone carrying an Antifa flag at a protest is maybe comparable to someone carrying a Gadsden flag at a right wing rally.
Yeah, basically this. People have been calling themselves Antifascist, but only the right-wing calls it "Antifa". Literally anyone carrying a sign at a protest that says "Reject Fascism" is an antifascist. Those are the people the US government is calling terrorists.
Parent comment was flagged but fair point. There’s nobody calling the global shots. I wouldn’t say “little to no coordination” but I think I’m splitting hairs.
There were a bunch of groups who actually called themselves either Antifa or Antifascist Action. That's where the name originates. It's not that US govt wants to give them credit for being "anti fascism."
No, they did not. Jerry Nadler is often cited as an example here and that’s wrong; what he actually said is that it was a myth that Antifa provocateurs were behind the ongoing violent protests in Portland. Not the same thing.
Don’t make vague accusations. If you have real cites, provide them. And your claim is “quite a few” so pointing at one candidate somewhere isn’t gonna do it.
As far as your second paragraph goes, I didn’t say that anyone should be protected from the consequences of their actions so that portion of your comment is irrelevant.
It’s still a myth. This administration labels anything that is against their agenda as “Antifa.”
They still haven’t positively identified an organization called “Antifa” and never will.
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The important part here would seem to be that we're talking about communications hosting. Why would we want to propagate a framing created by a far right terrorist network, just because they've managed to capture the bully pulpit? It's not required to pick any extremist organizations to support, you know.
Of course the fascists in power have a problem with real freedom.
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A/I collective is not being accused of that, but of hosting information and providing communications services.
If I vet Al Qaida members on my platform, provide them services, continue to do it after several bombings, and keep their unencrypted mails and host their websites, I'm quite sure that I can be considered as an accomplice.
When are the executives of Twitter, Facebook, Google, being charged with these crimes? Any minute now?
Would love to know who your supplier is, for... scientific purposes. FdS is controlled by managers appointed by political parties and the composition depends on who's in power in that moment, surely not "by the people" nor "communist unions".
The far more worrying development is that Tyrant Trump has declared the Palestine Action organization an official terrorist organization, to whatever degree it is an organization at all. Have there actually been threats or acts of violence with political objectives or are we just now calling everything the ruling maniacs don't like a terrorist, as I predicted before the "patriot" act was magically pulled out of a desk on 9/12 and rammed through congress in 6 weeks, before the dust had even settled over the rubble of the twin towers?
That should worry anyone, regardless of whether you agree with them or not unless they have perpetrated some kind of violent acts to scare people in pursuit of political aims like the US government. Trump may only be able to be a Tyrant for about 31 more months at best unless he goes full tilt, but the precedent he is setting will be used against any and all civic and resistance organizations that the ruling maniacs don't like in the future too.
I do not say this lightly, but everyone should be getting serious about what their plans will be when tyranny goes full mask off in the USA and your house and your land and your stuff all the sudden is said to belong to someone else and if you oppose that, you are a terrorist whose children deserve to be shot in the head by government snipers as the try to get water so they don't die of dehydration. No one ever thinks it will affect them, but you are already in the cage, the door is just not closed yet and it's clad in a pleasant facade. What happens when the psychopathic Epstein clan is facing total loss of power because the bond market has collapsed from their evisceration of all trust in the USA and they send their police and military goons after you as you try to scrounge for food to feed your family like in Palestine/gaza? You are the Gazans of tomorrow, you just don't know it yet.
I have been a personal victim to PA's violence and attacks. I could explain more details but essentially, they caused a bunch of damage and assaulted some employees of a workplace simply due to the fact we sold a piece of equipment to our middle eastern distributor that was going to a non-military Israeli company.
The rest of the designations are bullshit