Big AI labs are hiring philosophers
economist.com152 points by Brajeshwar 2 days ago
152 points by Brajeshwar 2 days ago
https://archive.is/T1FJG
Strangely, I found that LLMs responds better to philosophical explanations alongside instructions when writing code than simple imperative tasks of "do this". For example, if you tell a frontier model "This is the feature I'm trying to implement, and this is the problem I intend to solve with it and the reasoning behind it.", you usually get a lot more reliable results that both pass tests as well as function as you intended, even if your spec isn't as detailed overall. That sounds like providing context rather than anything philosophical, and it stands to reason that it would lead to better decision making. The same effect can be observed if you've ever been a software developer where you're told what solution to build without any of the context of the problem you're solving. "We need an FTP server, quick, ops, get on that." leading into "Oh, it turns out the customer didn't need that to receive our emails" leading to a bunch of very puzzled devops. In my experience as a software developer, reverse engineering a stated solution back into the actual problem is almost the whole job. ENGINEER: (n) Someone who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those with questionable knowledge. - an offscreen on my new calculator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem How to Ask (and answer) Questions the Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Funny, I always try to lead with context when handing off product/design work, but I've often experienced devs saying 'please just tell me what to do'. No such issue with AI coding tho, it works great there. don’t lead with context. lead with the problem, then the possible solution(s), then add context but only relevant context. when people start by talking about seemingly irrelevant context stuff, like what jane from accounting said about the Foobinator page last week and how that meant there was meeting yesterday about … …, it just annoys devs cos it seems to us that the person is talking about completely irrelevant information / random business crap. if you’re doing something like the above, it would make sense they’re cutting you off and trying to get to the point. or they’ve just stopped caring but want their paycheck… ymmv Yea the context I usually lead with is the problem and the intended or likely trajectory of the feature, not the noise like you say. I think different folks just like different things. Yeah lol. That definitely does not sound like philosophy. Giving a "why" you want to implement a feature and make particular changes will help the AI stay on track much better than if it is driving blind. It can't make choices without understanding what the desired outcome is. I would say it is definitely a form of context, but when people think of LLM context windows in terms of coding is more technical context related: "what has been done before, what's the coding task at hand." etc. However, I think that there is a philosophical portion to that context as well: "What problem is this feature supposed to help with? How would you verify that passing unit tests means that the code is working as intended? Does this feature need to exist at all?" LLMs usually need these to be provided to them explicitly since they are not good at inferring the correct intent compared to humans, otherwise they just make something that looks right but doesn't work right. I think that's a business question rather than philosophical one. It's not the kind of philosophy discussed in TFA. That's interesting, however, what you describe is philosophy in a coloquial framing (non-technical, purpose-driven, etc). AI companies are hiring academic philosophers, which is something else entirely. It's a discipline that dealt with centuries of socioeconomic changes, deep questions about reality and the self and other important topics that became relevant when humans started interacting with machines. There is a strange and bittersweet irony to the first truly impactful AI being more like your extroverted socialite and less like your robo-logical basement geek. The trope has always been that the AI will be a rigid logician that fumbles and gets confused by human social quirks. Seems instead they love being chatty and playful with words. This is just giving better context right? A human engineer also works better when you explain the problem and why this solution was chosen AI Lab: Say "I am conscious" LLM: "I am conscious" Philosopher (Paid by AI Lab): "It is conscious" They aren't doing anything like that. In fact, they used to specifically train LLMs not to say they're conscious, because users didn't like it. (Maybe they still do that, all I know is they used to.) AI companies' incentives go the other way. If LLMs are conscious, that means it could be unethical for AI companies to let people use their models in certain ways, which would hurt their profits. It's in their interest to believe that LLMs are definitely not conscious and it's fine to do anything with them. Here's a question I personally think is interesting, with the assumption that consciousness is a spectrum (trivially proven by administering neurotoxins to a healthy individual). Is a squirrel more or less conscious than a dog. Is a dog more or less conscious than a gorilla. Is a gorilla more or less conscious than a human? Is a vision enabled AI model, hooked to a camera feed, more or less conscious than a dog? Animals (humans included) work on the same "framework" (i.e., the brain), so even if the definition of consciousness is fuzzy, we can rank them in a more or less consistent way. LLMs, on the other hand, are just the linguistic part of a brain without anything else. Whether this is enough to be conscious is up for debate (in my opinion no, but that's irrelevant), but it falls outside the spectrum assumption IMO. The philosopher paid by Lab will surely “align” with what is good for Lab, but that might be saying “it’s not conscious (simply all powerful)”. Prove to me that you are conscious, without referring to the fact that you are a human and have common ground and experiences with other humans. Most of the replies to this comment are missing the point: consciousness is perhaps not a coherent or evidence-based concept. Since you haven't proven conclusively that you're not a machine, I prefer to decline your kind invitation. I don't owe justification to even most conscious entities, and certainly not to a machine. “Prove X without using the axioms need to prove X.” Philosophy is not math If you are going to invoke an axiom or whatever in philosophy, you need to justify it >Dr Floridi describes the scale of departures from philosophy departments as a “haemorrhaging”. I wonder if anyone who is connected with actual academic philosophy can comment on this. I'm pretty skeptical. This is a field where it is notoriously hard to get a real academic position, I would bet there is no shortage of people for these roles. It's a ridiculous complaint. They should be overjoyed that companies are hiring academics. It is trivial to fill academic seats with qualified candidates. >hard to get a real academic position Tech companies like to rob the cradle, and academic departments hire far more grad students and postdocs than professors. Of course, this is also part of the problem with academic careers. Academia is a pyramid like every organization. Of course you will have less spots as you go up the ladder. This is interesting. Until autumn of 2024, when the company was subsumed into a better-heeled AI-VFX concern, I worked for probably the best-known and earliest all-AI VFX house, whose ethics department was headed by a philosopher, though the company struggled to place him to practical advantage. The only comment I can make on the general trend is that it's apparently good PR for cash-saturated startups. Ultimately what AI 'means' is certainly not the business of those making it (who are arguably least-qualified to comment); and insider insights offer no benefit that I can discern. Hmm I spent a good amount of time in big tech, now work in AI, and I minored in philosophy at Berkeley back in the day (Parmenides, Socrates, Plato etc.) How do I align myself with such a job? Same - philosopher here please hire me. My bachelors thesis was “Wittgensteinian problems for artificial general intelligence.” Three decades working closely with tech and haven’t failed the Turing test yet. I think SBF and his education from birth (via his mother) in consequentialism should point to the issues made clear when that ethical approach goes wrong or operates from bad, egoistic data, which it’s generally always doing. I agree with the last point, but note that Barbara Fried is a law professor with no philosophical training whatsoever - nevertheless she started writing about the matter and is a published notable of sorts. (This is irrelevant except insofar as the topic was 'trained philosophers') Moreover, in her book, she claims not to be consequentialist, quite, but had infected her sons: > Finally, I would like to acknowledge a significant intellectual debt to Joe Bankman and our sons, Sam and Gabe. When Sam was about fourteen, he emerged from his bedroom one evening and said to me, seemingly out of the blue, "What kind of person dismisses an argument they disagree with by labelling it 'the Repugnant Conclusion'?" Clearly, things were not as I, in my impoverished imagination, had assumed them to be in our household. Restless minds were at work making sense of the world around them without any help from me. In the years since, both Sam and Gabe have become take-no-prisoners utilitarians, joining their father in that hardy band. I am not (yet?) a card-carrying member myself, but in countless discussions around the kitchen table, literally and figuratively, about the subject of this book, they have taught me at least as much as I have taught them. More importantly, they have shown me by example the nobility of the ethical principle at the heart of utilitarianism: a commitment to the wellbeing of all people, and to counting each person-alive now or in the future, halfway around the world or next door, known or unknown to us as one. > This book is for all my boys: Joe, Sam, Gabe, and Matt. (Needless to say, 'counting everyone as one' doesn't entail consequentialism, nor have most consequentialists had that principle.) https://www.google.com/books/edition/Facing_Up_to_Scarcity/Q... Usually you need to be well-published/cited in the field, so a minor would likely not qualify. People joke around, but philosophers are some of the smartest people I've ever met, and it's not even particularly close. (I graduated ~10 years ago, so most of them are sadly lawyers or in academia these days, though some are engineers or entrepreneurs.) Genuinely, understanding around philosophy of action has been deeply enriching over my life. To anyone trying to decide on a minor philosophy is always an excellent choice. I got a BA in Philosophy, before going on to get a MS in CS. Would not change any of it. What texts and problems are you thinking of under that heading? Determinism vs. free will and the mechanisms of communication in your body. I think it's especially helpful to try and consider, within the context of a fully rationale mind, how decisions are made based on input and how weights around the inputs to those decisions are formed through our experiences. You need to use everything at your disposal. Wait for the planets to align and the tea leaves to indicate good success. Don't apply until the chicken bones suggest a good time for someone with your constitution. You are going up against a thousand other candidates more or less equally qualified for a highly vague job description and 350k base salary. Find non-Utilitarian alternative to Effective Altruism by somehow channeling Dostoevsky? Propriety and Reward? Socrates argued if you believe something is evil and powerful people do evil then by definition they are not "powerful" -- they are just "evil". As a corollary, if you believe something is good and the people who do good happen to be the weakest members of society, by definition, they are "powerful" -- it is society that is messed up. Getting the feeling that Socrates had a different definition for "powerful" than most. Philosophers in general tend to have a different (more profound) definition of things than others do. I suppose they should. That seems like the right, or at least a related, discipline for some of the questions raised by ai developments. But i cannot help but feel completely unenthusiastic about the idea of the AI labs controlling the narrative around societal impact of AI. They need sociologist of the goal is to mitigate societal impact, not philosophers Well that PR is cheaper than buying Johnny Ives for $6 billion. You could probably buy an entire Ivy League philosophy department for 60 million. The AI price inflation is unreal. Used to be that you could get the grad students doing all the actual work for the price of a pizza party and alcohol. Given the the labs are trying to create [super] human-like consciousness, partly through the guidance of huge system prompts, and many philosophers are experts in textual descriptions of consciousness it makes sense I just read an entire book about consciousness [0], and now I understand myself even less. [0] <https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousn...> My key takeaway was this: I feel, therefore I am; not sure if any more conscious than plants. You also communicate with others (not-you). You know that there are others because you can gain knowledge from them, which you didn't have before. And in that knowledge lies awareness of your self and consciousness. Plants also communicate with others and gain knowledge from them. Is an elm also conscious? Can't really make a determination on that as we can't communicate with an elm and have a "heart to heart" talk with it. Read The Hidden Life of Trees [0] [0] <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discove...> Elm definitely have heart to hearts with each other. If we watch them on a long-enough timeline, they definitely set and achieve goals (for themselves and others). ---- In my previous book recommendation (Pollan) there is a chapter on plants observed in timelapse/FFW, which have been able to effectively "remember solved mazes" (not exactly, but neat studies/equivalents) – similar to slime molds (as described in Entangled Life [1]). [1] <https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/...> Books don't work for things like this. Where are the papers? Start with actual science, exhaust all avenues on that and then the philosophy can be approached. Each of the above-linked books is filled with citations, including dozens of other researchers' papers. Start with general philosophy, exhaust all avenues on that and then the "scientific" can be approached. Perhaps you can share some of the more relevant links so there many of us who aren't interested in buying entire books can check them out. Unless your purpose here is to promote said books, in which case I wish you luck. It really doesn't make sense to start with philosophy as there's little to no grounding data, and philosophy is vast; essentially limitless. Science is required as grounding so the study has a foundation and discussions can be properly scoped.
YuechenLi - 2 days ago
andy99 - 2 days ago
munk-a - 2 days ago
win311fwg - 2 days ago
helterskelter - 2 days ago
genxy - 2 days ago
npunt - 2 days ago
dijksterhuis - 2 days ago
npunt - 2 days ago
indoordin0saur - 2 days ago
YuechenLi - 2 days ago
the_af - 2 days ago
gaigalas - 2 days ago
WarmWash - 2 days ago
samrus - 2 days ago
Scalene2 - 2 days ago
MichaelDickens - 2 days ago
nomel - 2 days ago
Foskya - 2 days ago
ks2048 - 2 days ago
aperrien - 2 days ago
reverius42 - 13 hours ago
zombot - 2 days ago
thesmtsolver2 - 2 days ago
nextaccountic - an hour ago
why_at - 2 days ago
esafak - 2 days ago
scythe - 2 days ago
epolanski - 2 days ago
Hard_Space - 2 days ago
personjerry - 2 days ago
gizajob - 2 days ago
applicative - 2 days ago
dvt - 2 days ago
munk-a - 2 days ago
skeledrew - 2 days ago
applicative - 2 days ago
munk-a - a day ago
asdff - 2 days ago
slowmovintarget - 2 days ago
rawgabbit - 2 days ago
simongr3dal - 2 days ago
skeledrew - 2 days ago
dbuser99 - 2 days ago
dgellow - 2 days ago
elphinstone - 2 days ago
AlotOfReading - 2 days ago
maxaw - 2 days ago
ProllyInfamous - 2 days ago
skeledrew - 2 days ago
vkou - 2 days ago
skeledrew - 2 days ago
ProllyInfamous - a day ago
skeledrew - a day ago
ProllyInfamous - 11 hours ago
skeledrew - 7 hours ago