Microsoft builds MacBook Pro rival with NVIDIA-powered Surface Laptop Ultra
windowslatest.com272 points by jbk a day ago
272 points by jbk a day ago
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-lapt...
https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2026/05/31/introducing-sur...
Call me a hater, but the problem is Windows, not necessarily the hardware. I get it they want to stop the MacBook Pro, but: Windows is slow for no reason; it collects everything it can about the user; takes screenshots of whatever the user is doing; has ads - even though you pay for the OS; drivers are still a mess; hardware is made by different companies and no actual proper integration like Apple does. I could go on, but like someone here said: you have to pay me a hefty sum to use a Windows portable device ever again. Microsoft knows this. Just now at the BUILD keynote they showed off some kind of dev edition of Windows that didn't have the widgets and crap, they're shipping coreutils (uutils) in windows, improving the terminal, etc. It's too late, I think they should have done all of this a really long time ago, but at least they see that they are bleeding mind and marketshare and recognize why. Similarly on the higher end, I want to run linux on Apple Macbook laptops. I do this nonstop using the UTM app in Apple Silicon virtualization, not QEMU, mode. I've done this from M2, M2 Max, and M5 machines, it basically wraps the hypervisor.framework (or the current name) and i had used Asahi on an M1 before that. With UTM wrapping hypervisor.framework, i have a complete fullscreen desktop running Linux (i use fedora earlier but Arch the last several months) with full graphics as if it were on a dedicated host. Because it's running in an Apple Silicon hypervisor, i have macos tahoe running concurrently on separate desktops: no dual booting unlike when i was using Asahi. I haven't looked to see if i can access graphics hardware directly or if it's hidden behind a virtio layer in UTM's wrapping of the hypervisor.framewirk. Isn't there Asahi Linux that boots on Apple Silicon? Never tried it, but people here on HN mention it from time to time. There is but it lags behind the latest apple hardware. Asahi only supports M1, M2, and alpha support for M3. Not that I blame them for the lag, there's a lot of reversing work because apple doesn't document this stuff. Leave the drivers/power management to the optimized OS and do your work in VM ? This will not save you from things like this: macOS unable to open any non-Apple application (twitter.com/lapcatsoftware) 2603 points by mattsolle on Nov 12, 2020 | 1292 comments I've stopped using Windows as a Microsoft fanboy (I use C# to put bread on my table). I loved Windows, I think it peaked at 8 (yeah I know, unpopular take!) because 10 started out niceish, but went downhill and has been going downhill since, and Windows 11 is similar, just downhill to the max. I wish Microsoft would separate their marketing shenanigans from Windows more drastically and stop requiring online accounts. My OS should be able to fully install and function without any internet, and continue to do so. I'll default to buying Macs and Linux first systems instead. I do hope these new Nvidia laptops see Linux flavors, I'd love to buy one. Maybe System 76 might build one? Not sure. 7 was amazing. I was checked out from 8 on. I hope MacOS isn't repeating the 8 mistake with their recent MacOS updates. They seem to want to converge on one OS for every platform, watering down the experience across the board You're the first person I've seen call out 10 as going downhill. What were your complaints about 10? I migrated to macOS for development years ago and going back to Windows for development always felt gross, but I never had any issues with windows for entertainment/general productivity workflows. It's only once I tried 11 that I noped out for everything other than use as a Steam launcher. 10 was universally understood to be terrible, we're revising it to be good because we're comparing it with 11. That was the start of telemetry, it was forced on people with an upgrade pop-over that if uncancelled would just upgrade your PC... Windows 8 may have got rid of the start menu, and Windows 10 did bring it back, but in a weird hybrid form with "live tiles". Home users lost the ability to defer or decline Windows Updates. Windows 10 also shipped with pre-installed apps like Candy Crush, and later versions introduced adverts in the Start Menu... > Windows 8 may have got rid of the start menu, and Windows 10 did bring it back, but in a weird hybrid form with "live tiles". Windows 8 eventually caved and added it back in. I'll sound crazy, but I didn't mind it taking up the whole screen. Windows 8 gave me this interesting feeling that my OS was wrapping around an older version of Windows with Metro, and for whatever reason I loved it. I also did have a touch-screen laptop that I loved, hell I still have it... I bought it the week Windows 8 came out... and it runs Linux now. > I noped out for everything other than use as a Steam launcher. I definitely recommend you spend a weekend checking out either Ubuntu or EndeavourOS (Arch based) and install Steam, enable Proton for all games, and add the "bypass" for native games to play natively (I forget where this setting was) and you will be shocked how many games play on Linux just as well as they do on Windows, in some cases better. > I think it peaked at 8 Practically every benchmark agrees with you, aside from the Metro start menu, it was solid. I am old enough to declare it peaked with Windows 2000, which was mercifully a version of NT that crashed less and had a UI that was intended for serious use, rather than consumer market thrills. Which is why it was on the market so briefly. Every commit since has been for the bottom line, not the user. NT 4.0 did not crash that often if you rebooted it weekly (not uncommon at the time). And it had a simpler menu. But I agree about W2000 being peak Windows. > hardware is made by different companies and no actual proper integration like Apple does This is literally a Microsoft made hardware product which is extra integrated with Windows. > Call me a hater, but the problem is Windows... You're not a hater, windows is hot garbage. Windows is so damaged a this point, both in terms of rep and functionality, that microsoft might as well start form scratch with linux as the kernel. I am not even joking. And fire every mba that ever influenced the product. I'm pretty sure if they threw the Windows 7 source in a room with a mighty (sufficiently advanced) LLM, the only instruction being "make this better, make no mistakes" (as in the meme), it'd still be better than the current Win11 situation. This thing is horribly broken. At least with LLMs, I get a "you're absolutely right" when I complain. > Call me a hater, but the problem is Windows, not necessarily the hardware. Thing is, MacOS was heading the same way until the new chips saved it. The last few versions that were still running on Intel shouldn't have been as slow as they were. Software is going to shit everywhere, it's just there's now M* equivalent for Windows and Intel. All that to say: yes, I think you're spot on, the problem is sowftware, not hardware. More specifically, the problem is software that the user has less and less control of every year. We have no control over the bloat Apple and Microsoft perpetually add to their operating systems. We just have to take it, or hardware and ecosystem leave us behind. I wouldn't mind Windows if it were easy to rein it in, if I had granular control over what updates get applied and what gets trashed, and the ability to opt-out of updates. I wouldn't mind macOS if I could more easily control the UI bloat, preinstalled apps, and hundreds of background daemons/processes that are running that I never asked for. I want to take my Operating Systems back to 2009 and have a version of Windows 7 and OSX Snow Leopard that runs on my modern computers and have all 3rd party apps work on those operating systems. Or, just install Linux. It's a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Of laptops I'd like to run Windows on, I'd definitely choose the latest MacBook. Of reasons I don't run Windows on all of my desktop hardware, it's mostly because it's loaded with bullshit. Every time I read something like "completely redefines professional computing" I think that somebody in the marketing department didn't do a good enough job to disguise a sponsored content, or at the very least didn't review what the independent author wrote. Anyway, what I like of this machine is the 15" screen with a keyboard without a numberpad: the center of the body of the user can be aligned with the center of the screen. The screen seems to be particularly bright, which is good. There are claims of good self repairability, we will see when it starts to sell. I'd wait a few years before buying one machine in this product line. I want to see how Windows on ARM will play out in terms of compatibility. My build targets are all Intel servers (Linux), so I don't want to have surprises. I would have to wait years anyway because I would run Linux and I think that it takes more effort to port Linux to new ARM hardware that to new Intel one (ACPI etc.) WSL is not an option because I still have Windows around it and it's even more unpleasant than having to deal a Mac GUI. Let's say that if this were an Intel laptop I'd be tempted to buy it, if the hands on reviews will be good. I'm curious about the openness of the platform. As long as the openness and standardization of the PC platform is not present, this platform is not a contender of x86 in my eyes. We can see with the highly praised Apple M platform on the example of the Asahi Linux what the lack of openness brings: people are locked in to operating systems by the vendors, and planned obsolescence, even with long support periods. On the other hand the PCs abandoned by Windows 11 support (sometimes even 1 year old models!) had the freedom to choose from a variety of operating systems, all thanks to the openness of the PC platform. Repairability is important, but why repair something when you can only use terrible, soon out of support operating, which spy on you? (This means practically any OS vendored by large corporations) For ARM systems openness boils down to the custom boot process, and of course the driver support. Has ARM PC vendors standardized on a boot standard yet? I cal recall the horror on reading articles how Raspberry Pi boot was working, or how M1 Mac bootloader is locked down. Yes, with 128GB RAM, I guess one could even ignore that it is soldered (and hence "unrepairable"), but if it can't run Linux or *BSD it is a definite no go. We definitely don't need two closed hardware platform duopoly (Apple and Microsoft), as together they will dominate and kill the "open" platforms. But I am pessimistic here as everything seems headed towards that eventuality. We should never have accepted smartphones as closed platforms. > Yes, with 128GB RAM, I guess one could even ignore that it is soldered Unless that RAM fails in some way or another, then you have to replace the whole motherboard because of this. It depends - soldered RAM (LPDDR) on iPads and soldered SSD on Intel Mac Minis can be repaired by replacing the chip. (But obviously it requires skills and specialised tools). So you don't necessarily need to replace the whole board. But if it is some kind of "integrated" non-standard RAM, like Apple uses on its ARM series SoCs, it is near unrepairable. So yeah, one should think many times before buying a computer with soldered RAM. (On the positive side, I've never had to replace any RAM in any computers I've owned so far - the failure point has always been HDDs for me). in case of macbooks even if something like usb port controller failed is most likely leads to board replacement as well so is high change that even if RAM is fine it could be useless because some $2 component failure macbooks have modular ports. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r... > But I am pessimistic here as everything seems headed towards that eventuality. Lots of companies buy average Dell and Lenovo laptops because they are repairable in-house. That's good to know - but many of their models also have soldered RAM, which is disappointing. > We should never have accepted smartphones as closed platforms. I didn't. Sent from my Librem 5. There is ARM SystemReady in a couple of flavours, one of which is UEFI: https://documentation-service.arm.com/static/68512137d12d1a1... While I'm not exactly enthused about UEFI I prefer this to android's fork-the-kernel-tree-and-abandon model for your pocket-SBC. The last device I used with this booted fedora using arm UEFI no issue, several years ago. I don't see x86 going away for a long while if at all - too much software is built for it so the inertia is massive. The bootloader boot/process however is not related to driver support. Not that I know what's nightmarish about it in the Pi. The Pi is really a GPU with a CPU added on so the whole system needs to be brought up by the (binary blobs for running the) GPU. Hopefully not the case in these more PC-like systems... Though in fairness: Windows on ARM (even ignoring the earlier iteration of it from ~2016) has had a year or two to mature thanks to the Copilot+ PCs. And, this particular chip seems near-identical to the one Nvidia put in the DGX Spark (again, even ignoring earlier ARM CPUs from Nvidia like Tegra in the Nintendo Switch). I just got one of the lighter Snapdragon surface laptops and the software ecosystem is still hit and miss. LuaJIT in particular still has build problems on WoA and that's unfortunately upstream of a lot of stuff I use day-to-day. The NPU is apparently neat if you're into LLMs (it can allegedly run gemma) but that's not my thing. > Anyway, what I like of this machine is the 15" screen with a keyboard without a numberpad: the center of the body of the user can be aligned with the center of the screen. ThinkPad P1 is the machine for you and you can run Linux on it. I have a ThinkPad P1 (Gen 2) and I run Linux, but I'd hesitate to recommend at least the Nvidia dGPU versions. The battery life is dismal, even with the dGPU disabled in software (can't be HW disabled). It also runs really hot and the suspend is still flakey. >Anyway, what I like of this machine is the 15" screen with a keyboard without a numberpad: the center of the body of the user can be aligned with the center of the screen. The screen seems to be particularly bright, which is good. There are claims of good self repairability, we will see when it starts to sell. Oh you mean like the incredible MacBook Pros of the last two generations that have been selling like hotcakes and have a surprisingly similar design to this device?
"Redmond, start your photocopiers" never gets old. Apple wouldn't ever do something like that. "Good artists copy, great artists steal" This quote is terribly misunderstood. "Steal" here means "make it your own", as in, improve it, not "copy slavishly". What it means is that to be great you have to find good ideas and then execute. Yeah, you are correct: in “good artists copy, great artists steal”, the “steal” doesn’t mean “copy”. But, OTOH, there’s another word in there that does... In fact no, not in this “let’s throw some more shit at the wall and see what sticks” way My experience with Surfaces and, particularly, the Surface Book and its accompanying dock were such that I'd have to be paid to use one again. For example, the dock would get its own updates silently and brick itself randomly and the proprietary magnetic connector between the dock and the computer was prone to a poor connection. I remember many occasions trying to work and my screens just randomly blinking in and out. To get service we'd have to go to a local Microsoft Store, a sad replica of the aging Apple "shiny glass minimalism" aesthetic, which have since all closed so we'd have to mail the thing today instead. I worked with some of the people responsible for the Surface Book, Surface docks, and specifically the Surface Book's dock. These were hardware people (EEs), not software people, and this was after their time at MS. Unfortunately I don't remember specifics (both because it's been a few years, and because I'd probably have to fuzz details anyway), but... : Docks are horrifying products. Thunderbolt docks are doubly horrifying. They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. The Thunderbolt interface in particular, and the firmware that needed to run on that interface controller, was the source of a lot of issues. None of them were particularly intrinisc to the protocol, but the hardware available was junk and the software available was worse. They couldn't really order up a custom non-garbage IC just for a $100 accessory that sells in limited volume. (Apple, however, could and would; they'd also demand to control the whole stack. This shows.) They were very proud they got the thing working as well as they did, even though they all knew it was still pretty much trash. It was still better than the competition. Which is sad, but what can you do? (At least it wasn't the Wi-Fi chip. The Surface Book's Wi-Fi adapter was chosen by higher-ups as the same one used in the XBox, presumably for sourcing reasons. It is trash. Again, much blood, sweat, and tears were spilled making it work as well as it does.) (I also have the exact circuit for the LED that lights up on the charger cable. Apparently it was a big deal, which I find hilarious.) My team (Microsoft Band) discovered the reason why the surface's keyboard sometimes wouldn't work when connected. There was a hardware bug in the cortex MCU the keyboard used involving waking from deep sleep. One of our FW engineers spent several months figuring it out and eventually reported it to the manufacturer, and to the Surface team. IIRC it was something about wake on interrupt in a specific deep sleep mode and also something around timing. It was a rather nasty bug. Firmware is full of nightmare scenarios like that. [flagged] Respectfully, no, not even a little bit. That’s normal everyday microcontrollers for you. Yeah, wake from deep sleep is always one of the weirder bits. It's just hard to do. You clearly have never tried to implement sleep on a microcontroller. It has nothing at all to do with ACPI. And this kind of eldritch bug is par for the course. It has nothing at all to do with Microsoft or PCs at all. Microcontroller sleep just sucks in a lot of incredibly weird ways. I've been using the Apple USB-C multi port adapter thing since I got one free from a previous job, it seems overpriced since I can see a lot of similar ones much cheaper from competitors, but I've also never had an issue with it in any configuration on any device including non Apple ones. While I regularly see people having issues with the cheaper ones from Dell or Amazon sellers. So maybe you really are getting something extra when you pay for the Apple one. I’ve had great experiences with OWC as well though I know some people say it can be hit or miss even for the price. I’ve got two major docs from them and so far they’ve been very reliable > Docks are horrifying products. Thunderbolt docks are doubly horrifying. I believe it. From all my years as a sysadmin, docks were by far the second largest source of headaches (after printers). Super high failure rate, all kinds of quirks, shoddy power delivery. And these weren't some cheap amazon basics dongles, I'm talking the $250+ docks from Dell, Lenovo, etc. Docks ok. But why printers are such a hot mess? For the past 20 years they could have been just webservers that we send REST requests to. But no, we had to install random drivers on our machines, get blue screens and have to plug and unplug the printers until they get reset properly. MS got involved, and they are web servers that you send SOAP requests to, (to support MFC devices, of course) and the Windows stack uses UPNP to discover them, and register them by their UPNP names, and they tend to be sticky to their temporary IPv6 addresses, and often fail to rediscover when their temporary IPv6 address changes. Oh and the windows UI doesn't give you any ability to edit the 'port', failing instead with some incomprehensible "operation not supported" if you dare click the 'edit' on the port. It's not considered fully RESTful, but it sounds like you are describing IPP, which came out in 1997. Compatibility marks/certifications like AirPrint (2010) define how to advertise your IPP printer and its features, such as whether you can directly send a PDF. IPP Everywhere is perhaps the most notable open alternative to AirPrint. IPP Everywhere and AirPrint are virtually identical AFAIK, it's just that AirPrint uses a slightly different proprietary raster format because Apple is gonna Apple. > For the past 20 years they could have been just webservers that we send REST requests to. That exists, it’s called IPP. Because everyone wants 100% PostScript-compatible printers and nothing else. The PostScript was created by ex-PARC people as they were founding a small startup called Adobe Systems, and it was chosen by Apple for its revolutionary 1985 LaserWriter printer. LaserWriter was partially OEM'd by Canon, and its competitors couldn't simply steal the protocol; most others to date use a 100% compatible proprietary protocols that, IIUC, aren't internally that much different from it. And PostScript later became the basis for Adobe's other publishing data formats, including PDF, which means pdf/ai/psd is 100% guaranteed WYSIWYG. macOS 10.x also partially uses PDF to render desktop. and this ^ is why. >Because everyone wants 100% PostScript-compatible printers and nothing else. Nothing about what the parent wrote prevents that. What if computers simply rendered 300dpi PNG files and sent that to the printer? That's actually what a lot of Brother printers do with their default or generic drivers. Except... it's JPEG, not PNG, so you get artifacting. Drives me crazy. Installing the specific driver like it's 1999 works well, but most people don't bother these days. And thus the world is a bit more crap. Apart from speciality printers[1], I've not had to use drivers for many years. [1] ie a risograph Because printers must be as cheap as possible and require a recurring revinue stream, which includes malware. Sorry, "valuable special offers". It costs more money to make a printer with good firmware, and you're more likely to throw away a buggy printer and buy a new one with new special ink cartridges. Printers are complex robots, require frequent supply refills, and are high touch interactions with people. (people printing things wrong, people misusing printing resources, managing quotas for same, etc.) It's not just firmware. It's 100% just firmware + crappy business model. Printers are hardly "complex" - a few very standard gear/roller/sensor based mechanisms we've built for 4 decades pretty identically with hardly any innovation. Besides far more complex frequent-use devices don't have such shit problems and experience. Nor is "you're out of blue ink, you can't print this b&w document" or "you didn't install the official $50 cartridge, but a third-party $10 one, you can't print" and such crap related even remotely to printers being "complex robots" or "requiring frequent supply reffils". You're talking about printers at home. We're talking about printers at work. >And these weren't some cheap amazon basics dongles, I'm talking the $250+ docks from Dell, Lenovo, etc. Most of premium "docks" (if not all) are repackaged cheap hw sold much lower as no-name. The fact they are stuck with the concept of a dock being something the computer needs to physically sit in is just funny to me. I have a "dock" for my MBP that is just a little box that everything connects to that doesn't leave my desk. When I connect my MBP to it, I just plug in the single cable to it. If the cable goes bad, it hasn't in the 3+ years of use, I would just swap out the cable. I haven't seen a dock that the laptop needs to sit in in ~10 years. Afaik those kind of laptops haven't been made for that long either. It's all USB-C now. I’ve been doing this for about a decade with thunderbolt 2 then 3 (and backwards compat with 4). I’ve had one cable begin to fray in all that time (a thunderbolt 4 caldigit cable). It swapped it out for an Apple cable and kept going. I’ve used OWC docks, which aren’t known to be the best, but have worked great for charging, usb, Ethernet, FireWire, display (both over daisychained thunderbolt and display port), and SD cards. The only thing I have used them for extensively is audio. My monitor is a Thunderbolt 2 monitor with USB breakout. In between it and the dock is a two drive SATA enclosure. I recently threw an extra Thunderbolt 3 dock I had on a USB-4 mini computer running Linux and it worked without any issue. I’m sure there may be things that don’t work well, but its worked for me. I even wrote an app to have a global hot key to eject all my attached disks (DriveLight). Press the key combo, wait for the eject sound, pull the cable and go. There are many windows laptops that have usb-c docks that don't physically dock. They are more accurately called port replicators. My work laptop is a Dell with one. Yeah parent is out of touch with 2026 reality. I sit now at work, having dell laptop connected to 'dock' via single usb cable to dell monitor. Monitor handles usb mouse, keyboard etc and power delivery. No boxes laying around, just a single cable. I've always suspected Thunderbolt (and USB-C with a thick, inflexible cable attached) is a terrible port for a dock. This guy tears down and analyzes docks with incredible detail, he might like to hear about your experience > They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. It is so hard to believe that when more than 1000 employees at my employers are also using at least one dock (Dell and Thinkpad both) and using them very well. In 2017 or so the standard Surface docks were rough. I think we had at least a 60% failure rate, though for the CEO who demanded a surface we swapped his issue dock with the one he had the week prior. And it would work for X weeks until failing to display to external monitors. Then we'd swap it out for the one from X weeks back and continue the cycle. Maybe change the power brick out. Today I swap the power brick on my Dell thunderbolt dock when it acts up. Given the hours of use and how many times it's been plugged/unplugged from various laptops/etc (it worked great off an AMD desktop PC with thunderbolt on the rear I/O), I think my employer should buy me a knew one out of respect. I think 2017 is the big thing here. We had those early "blessed by Apple" USB-C LG monitors. Garbage when it came to connectivity. Same with docks and the like. We're now 9 years later so... I think it's all better now than before. We are talking about a situation some years past. I member there were USB docks that if you had them attached to external power and ethernet, but not a laptop, they'd instant-kill the network by sending garbage frames that would cause switches to fault off. Only around 2024-ish the situation with USB and TB docks seemed to stabilize. I had a CalDigit TB dock -- maybe 2021-ish? -- that every time I unplugged my MacBook would take my internet offline. I thought I was insane. How is that even possible? But I finally gave up and returned it. Thanks for finally answering this mystery for me. I have a brand new TV where if I plug the HDMI into my M4 MBP, MacOS ceases to have any functioning WiFi capability. Unplug the HDMI and internet returns instantly. That's probably because your TV has support for Ethernet over HDMI enabled. Run ifconfig to check if there's a new (and, possibly, default-routed) interface when you plug that TV in. Holy shit. Is this the mythical TV that actually supports Ethernet over HDMI? The fact that this feature is advertised no every HDMI cable and yet supported by approximately no hardware in the real world has been a source of amusement and mild sadness to me for the last decade or so. I'd actually really like a TV that properly supports it because the idea of having one ethernet cable running to my TV and then everything else also getting a wired connection via the HDMI cable its already attached to pleases me, in the same way that a single USB-C cable on my desk giving my laptop access to ethernet, monitors, USB peripherals, and power pleases me. > I'd actually really like a TV that properly supports it because the idea of having one ethernet cable running to my TV and then everything else also getting a wired connection via the HDMI cable its already attached to pleases me I'd more be afraid than happy if a TV were to support that (and even more if laptops would use it to bridge a TV to the home network), simply because a TV that has internet access in any kind will download ads and nagware and upload viewership statistics in return. Modern TVs truly have become like 1984 - there is no way a 4k 60-inch TV at 340€ is anywhere close to profitable on its own without milking the user's data for all it is worth. The actual cost of a TV is more like 900€+ if you go by the prices for "digital signage" TVs.
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I am confused by this comment. RPi is legendary for their driver support. A large portion of the company is dedicated to it. I would say this is the primary reason that they can fend off cheap clones from China, whereas 3D printers are all but defeated at this point. > I can recall the horror on reading articles how Raspberry Pi boot was working
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