Googlebook
googlebook.google789 points by tambourine_man 17 hours ago
789 points by tambourine_man 17 hours ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1tb8xls/introducin...
So this is essentially Android desktop mode with Android 17 Gemini integration.
Please get rid of that top panel. I just don't get why this and desktops like GNOME tries to copy macos top panel when clearly in macos it is menu bar that host app menus but that concept doesn't exists in these other desktops and yet they have a top panel. This is just bad UX. This will follow same model as Chromebooks i.e different devices from different OEM partners and for x86 and arm. So soon someone will be able to create a generic ISO for this that you can boot on a standard x86 PC/laptop. Samsung is also working on such devices but they will probably have Dex which is much better then the current Android desktop mode. So, I'm only slightly trying to be a smartass here, but... Who is this for? They are marketing what is ostensibly a computer for people who seem to not want to use a computer in scenarios that I don't think even exist. Beyond that, this is a laptop that is running a really shitty, 'apps only, no you cannot do anything useful with this' operating system. I have an awful lot of complaints about MacOS's relatively restrictive use cases, but it's still at least a General Purpose OS. Android on laptop is very much not. This is an overgrown phone with all the trash that comes with a phone, and the very finite use cases that come with a phone, only now it has a keyboard. It's solving none of the problems with Android as an operating system and doesn't seem to even be interested in doing that anyway. The marketing is demoing use cases that don't even exist. So I repeat my question: Who is this for? > So, I'm only slightly trying to be a smartass here, but... Who is this for? The primary difference between a Chromebook and a Googlebook appears to be the ability to run LLM's locally. The requirements were spelt out at Google I/O. They boil down to a 40 TOPS NPU and a minimum of 16GB of memory. They appear to be trying to match Apple's M series memory bandwidth using software compression. ChromeOS didn't need an NPU and specified a minimum of 4GB of memory. Aluminium OS looks to have the same relationship with its LLM as a Chromebook did with Google Chrome, and needs the hardware to power it. If they pull it off you will get GPT-4 performance, running locally. As for who this is for: your guess is as good as mine. But if their replacement for crostini works (crostini is so hopelessly unreliable it felt like it never got out of beta, so it's a big if), even the minimum specs would be a very good Linux laptop. Do you have a source for this local stuff? i can kinda see it, they spent a lot of time getting Gemma 4 pretty efficient and then seeing everyone buy macs to run them and realize it’s maybe a real moat since Apple doesn’t make any AI Would be an interesting product if it could actually give you GPT performance locally, will be an awful experience if it’s essentially just cloud AI…like a premium laptop where most of the features are locked behind a subscription would be wild They are already rolling it out in Chrome: https://www.pcmag.com/news/chrome-is-quietly-downloading-4gb... It won't work on a Chromebook with 4GB of RAM, so they need beefier hardware. Yep, that's the answer. That being said I still imagine their preference is that nothing is run locally, all via their server to get all precious usage data. > Beyond that, this is a laptop that is running a really shitty, 'apps only, no you cannot do anything useful with this' operating system. I have an awful lot of complaints about MacOS's relatively restrictive use cases, but it's still at least a General Purpose OS. Android on laptop is very much not. Android 16+ offers a built-in integrated Linux VM that can be enabled from Developer Mode, and if this[0] third-party site is accurate, "Android on laptop" will have it enabled by default. So it should not be too different from working on a Windows laptop with WSL2, or on an OSTree distro where you use distroboxes to work with non-sandboxed programs. (fwiw, I would still refuse to have one of these for personal use because Google is a shameless data robber. Unless someone were to de-google Aluminium like LineageOS and GrapheneOS did for Android, but that would probably take years.) No idea. The people that have no need to run real software and want a high end device probably have an iPad with a keyboard case. Those that want a low end device have a chromebook. This thing will be killed early 2028... > So, I'm only slightly trying to be a smartass here, but... Who is this for? You're not the only one asking this. I'm right there with you. I mean you basically just described a chromebook, though I believe one of the selling points of chromebook is that it's dirt cheap. Yeah, a Chromebook's killer 'feature' is that it's web browser attached to a keyboard and functional screen for cheap on a platform that you can't otherwise screw up. If you price that up to $1,000 (which some Chromebooks definitely do), then I start to ask a variation of the same question: Why did you buy that? Wait, there are people there who use computers for more than creating family albums? Gosh, I lived in ignorance all this time. every large corporation is going to come out with a hardware device in the next 12 months where you don't directly use applications, where the AI acts as an intermediary openai, anthropic, meta, google, all of them even you will want one of these devices, probably (not saying this is a positive development in the world) And every one of these ‘AI first’ laptops will be cancelled in a couple of years when generative AI is no longer the hot new thing and end users realise its severe limitations. Would prefer a 'Google Linux'—a native desktop OS with a unified UI philosophy, similar to a macOS experience but built on a standard Linux foundation. Instead of ChromeOS or Android as the base, treat them as subsystems for compatibility. The real 'next big thing' would be integrating an engine like Gemini with OS-level hooks (similar to the OpenClaw approach) so agents can manipulate app windows and state directly. Resurrecting Web Intents as 2-way App Intents would be the key to making this work. Also, keeping prompts as local .md files with an Obsidian-like system editor would be a huge win for power users. Simply gating Gemini behind 'premium' Chromebooks feels like the old 'licking the cake' strategy from the Google+ days—trying to force a new product's success by coopting existing hardware rather than building a superior platform. I can imagine having Gemini + local Gemma working with Agents, which have access to my e-mail (ideally on GMAIL, but also supporting outlook), keeping local history of my visited sites and messages... and using RAG or something even better, ideally with looking also on repos I have checkouted to my file system, and maybe even whole file system.... Work related e-mail about "sending invoice to customer"... it may suggest proper content for e-mail. Having "dashboard" with summary of todays communication to you, your tickets (at work) and so on.... Can Google build such thing? If somebody can - it will be them. Will they build it? Probably not, they would prefer to build 3rd version of Google Pay. > The real 'next big thing' would be integrating an engine like Gemini with OS-level hooks (similar to the OpenClaw approach) so agents can manipulate app windows and state directly. Resurrecting Web Intents as 2-way App Intents would be the key to making this work. I think for something like this, it will only work if you can allow you local files to get messed up by the LLM but then, because everything has been synced to the cloud, there's a safe "revert" option. I'd love that built on a Linux foundation too, but realistically reckon if they're going down that path they've got the core of "all your app state can be backed-up/transferred" already in Android so they'd likely lean heavily on that. > similar to a macOS experience but built on a standard Linux foundation. From a security perspective, this cannot exist. MacOS is fundamentally superior to classical GNU/Linux distros. Android/ChromeOS are the only Linux systems that make a serious attempt to close that gap. I think the closest thing I can imagine is a system that goes all in on a Snap/Flatpak type platform (basically, like Fedora Silverblue, plus throw ~50 million dollars at fixing all the sandboxing, improving the SELinux policies or whatever, cranking up the system integrity story, getting some kernel hardening in place, stuff like that). With Google's funding I do think that's technically viable, I would love to see it. But, I dunno if it would count as "standard Linux foundation". And, kinda a weird thing to do for a company that's already spent billions over the last 20 years to build several existing Linux OSs. (BTW, this is a totally security-brained take. I do actually run classical GNU/Linux on all my personal computers, the fact that it's a fundamentally insecure OS doesn't actually bother me that much. But I don't think Google can realistically ship a "product" like that. If it really took off and gained the kinda adoption they are presumably hoping for, it would honestly be quite irresponsible of them). I just made a comment to the same effect. They should be trying to compete with MacBook mini. Google literally already sells Coral usb inference engines, so they’re most of the way there already: https://www.coral.ai/products/accelerator > so they’re most of the way there already Reading comments like this makes me feel like I live on a different planet from some people. The Coral USB dongle is from 2019 - it is a dev kit, not a souped-up edge inference unit. It was not designed to compete with the Macbook Mini (???) and is not some sort of touchstone or landmark in AI development. It's a tiny TPU that Google made to prototype technologies for their own SOCs like Google Tensor later down the line. I don't know, but they do let you run Linux in a VM already on Chromebook. Hopefully that will continue. I mean, I'm sure they absolute could build it and do a great job of it, but their incentives are all aligned to having you use web apps or buying from their store. A real linux would be absolutely counterproductive to those goals. I can't see how this would be meaningfully different from ChromeOS. Google cannot force GNOME and KDE to stop clashing, there's no opportunity to "unify" the UI philosophy of Linux any better than the current efforts do. And upstream Linux has no big selling point for most users - the people that do care about that stuff will typically avoid Google's distro altogether. If you want an upstream Linux kernel with folders of markdown prompts and virtualized ChromeOS/Android containers, just use Linux. You don't need to wait for Google to build that experience for you. There's a joke about how Win32 is the most stable API on Linux. Maybe they could do that :-) It might be a good way to get Steam compatibility? I bought a Pixelbook during the middle of their product lifetime, and it was one of the best laptops I ever had. I genuinely don't know how broadly that sentiment was shared, but the cancellation of the product line suggests "not that broadly." Google has changed since that time and I am a bit skeptical this will meet that specific niche for me. Yeah, I had the original Chromebook Pixel and the Pixelbook and they were both great. Somehow I'm still using the Pixelbook today and it chugs along. That said, its hard to justify the prices for these premium Chromebooks. When I picked them up they were heavily discounted with some developer code or other. I also agree with the shaky future as far as being able to actually opening these things up with developer tooling. It seems like they've simply been on a path to rollback all of that. I recently replaced my Pixelbook with a Lenovo Chromebook Plus. I don't like the increase in size/weight, but it's far more performant and Lenovo periodically has steep discounts on their hardware. I don't know if these were related but I had a Pixel C tablet and I'm still upset they killed that off too. It was a nicer tablet than any Samsung I tried and felt like a genuine competitor to the iPad equivalent really excellent build quality, and then they abandoned it. I still have it but whatever they did to the software before giving up on it made it crash and blackscreen all the time while completely idle and I haven't had the energy to install something else on it, if something else even exists. I think the big issue is it's still not a real full laptop, and that dramatically limits the audience. No matter how well it's made, they're never going to actually do what needs to be done to make it a mass market product. Google doesn't really have the dedication to be a real hardware company. Their hardware is more of a showcase to demonstrate things they want other people to do. And at this point they kill projects so often lots of folks are very hesitant to spend money on their things only for it to die, just like you experienced. Likewise I bought the Chromebook Pixel LS and a Pixelbook during that dark period before M-series laptops and these laptops were awesome and IMO well ahead of their time. The ChromeOS with all its faults was a modern OS without legacy. For example the OS settings are closer to the Phone OS like settings vs MacOS settings that are still a mess these days. I always wanted a pixelbook as I loved the hardware design and the taller aspect ratio screen, it was just too expensive for me to spend on a chromebook only laptop. IMO it looked nicer than the Macbook Pro's of the time. They all suffered from severe hardware issues that got never fixed. Chromebook Pixel 2013 had that atrocious function key row that didn't align with the rest of the keyboard and where made of different material and had terrible travel. The Pixelbook had some terrible PWDM issues with the display and iirc it also had severe ghosting issues. Not to forget the cut in performance of these mobile fanless Intel chips because of Meltdown & Spectre. I think the Pixelbook's WiFi/Bluetooth module made by Intel also suffered from hardware faults where using Bluetooth could degrade WiFi performance and vice versa. Google seems to have made an official post on Reddit describing the feature set in detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1tb8xls/introducin... [Edit] And, the feature set references the 'AI mouse pointer' from this Deepmind blog.. Wiggling the mouse is what people do involuntarily when the computer isn’t working right. They are setting themselves up for Gemini to be the uninvited Clippy, except this will send everything you are working on to Google to harvest data from. The video they show (which is probably exaggerated by cutting out LLM generation time) is pretty sci-fi. I don't know how it works in practice, but it looks fun to try out. If this could run locally, I'd love to have a feature like that. Most people don't really seem to care about data collection when it comes to AI usage. A lot of people who will feed Gemini/ChatGPT/Bing/Claude/shady clusters across the internet for bargain bin prices/Mistral every detail of their lives will probably be fine with Gemini as long as it doesn't interfere unnecessarily. It probably works similar to how Gemini works in Android for a while now. You can point or select anywhere on the screen and it understands and searches the context. If you select a text block, even text inside an image, it allows to copy or search the text online. Otherwise it can search the image. I use it often. It's intuitive and fast even on non-flagship phones. I'd wager their A/B tests went well enough to warrant a port from phones to their new "Chromebook". > Most people don't really seem to care about data collection when it comes to AI usage. That assumes you intended to use AI. People are going to accidentally upload random private content to google. It's the unofficial "where's my mouse pointer" macro At least one DE I've used (MacOS? KDE?) even had it as an official macro that would make the pointer 10x bigger when you shook it MacOS and KDE both do this. In KDE the pointer keeps getting larger the longer you shake it until it is truly absurdly huge. KDE does that by default. Handy sometimes, funny sometimes. If you keep on shaking the mouse, the pointer just keeps getting bigger and bigger. You can certainly find it when it is enormous. It is deliberately designed for maximum accidental invocations so the managers and execs behind it can claim the large user numbers in their promo packets. > Example: Point at a date in an email to instantly set up a meeting, find good spots to meet up, or draft a reply. This is actually a good use case for AI. My university sends a lot of newsletters with several events in free text format; all I want is to be able to select one of them, have an LLM parse the title, date, location, and category, and put it in my calendar. Still, I'm sceptical this will work. Samsung phones supposedly have this same feature, and it works 1/10 of the times. Pasting it to ChatGPT and tell it to add the events to my calendar works fine, but the bottleneck is always the project managers in charge of the UI. Of course, having a small local model and being able to choose my own right-click items like I could in 1995 would be an actual solution. Oh my goodness, the use cases are so… badly conceived: > If a friend sends you a picture on your phone and you need to email it from your laptop, the file is just there — no need to email it to yourself. So are there really people who will email a photo to themselves from their phone to… send the photo in an email? Interesting to note that there is no mention of processor or operating system in that post. I’m guessing that it’s Android in a laptop form factor which I suppose might be something that some people would want, but I’m not one of them. Getting files on and off of a phone is shockingly hard. Shockingly. It's even worse on an iPhone, if you don't have a mac. To get my photos from my iPhone to my PC, I had to first upload them to iCloud and then download them again. My phone and computer are, like, a foot away from each other but I had to send the photos across the country to some server and back just to look at them. Everyone emails themself stuff, that's normal. The weird part is how often will you ever need to email it specifically from your laptop, but it's already on your phone? If it's on your phone and you need to email it to someone, couldn't you just email from your phone? Have you tried using the Gmail app? It's missing a whole bunch of features. For example, you can't even insert hyperlinks with custom text. For images, I often don't want to send an image at its full resolution. Rescaling images is a task that's much easier to do on a laptop. Oh, I use use AirDrop to myself for this. Yes, given my photo library syncs to iCloud, just opening Photos seems like it makes sense on a fast WAN which I sort-of do have, but of course, iCloud syncs only happen when the device decides the mood is just right, and can't be triggered manually, because I guess that would just be 'clutter' in the UI. What drives me absolutely nuts about AirDrop is that it's only device-to-device even if devices are on the same WAN. My wife and I have home offices at opposite sides of the house with hardwired desktops and Wi-fi APs, but we can't AirDrop to each other as we're out of range for it. I remember in late 10s I could just connect my iPhone to a windows machine and the photos folder would be right there, mounted, with the typical iOS filenames for each picture. Is this a false memory? Maybe I was on a Mac and just forgot? I'm pretty sure you can still do that, you can at least with Android phones, but it does require a physical cable. Photos taken on iPhone are automatically synchronized with iCloud.. I guess you can just go to iCloud.com and download them on your PC? If you want to send a photo to your friend from your iPhone, just click on the photo and click the "share" button, then you have many options, including sending it via Email.. What am I missing? The synchronization is opaque - more than once I checked for photos and they weren't uploaded yet. Also downloading stuff is very, very slow compared to wired transfers, and logging into Apple anything on your web browser is a huge pain in the ass. That's mostly an iPhone problem. Plugging in an Android phone still works, and wireless exchange with QuickShare also works on most devices. With Google reverse engineering Airdrop, I hope they can get the Android <-> macOS experience to finally work correctly soon as well. LocalSend works really well across platforms in a LAN, no uploading to some server required. I'm super techy but I admit that I just use Signal to send me a "Note to self" whenever I need a file from my phone on my computer quickly. For images I just use immich, but texting myself is honestly the quickest way for files because the experience is indeed terrible. I personally just have a discord with myself as the only member. With their webhooks API you can even automate the PC side. I emailed myself many times to transfer some files between phone and computer. I would say at least once every week. It is a solved problem
https://f-droid.org/packages/com.ismartcoding.plain/ There is also localsend, but plainapp needs to run in only one device. They should have just said "USE it on your laptop", not email it. I all the time use my phone as a camera (esp. for coin photography) than e-mail the photos to myself as the most convenient way to get them on my desktop where I can edit them with GIMP etc. I just open photos.google.com and grab them. No need to fiddle on my phone. When on wifi, the photo backup upload starts immediately. If it doesn't (possibly due to your settings, this used to be my issue) you can manually open the photos app and tap the backup now button. I'm not sure if that's an option for me, since I'm not using the regular camera app - I'm using Halide which is better suited to macro (coin) photography. Google Drive would be another option to transfer, but would be more work (about same to "share" as email, but less convenient to access on desktop). The e-mail way is actually quite convenient since on the desktop you can just download all the photos you sent in one go - they appear as a zip file that you can then just extract to your working directory, rather than having to save one at a time. It’s a poor example. Recently, I did have to email myself photos taken with my phone to access them on my laptop. Would be nice if they were automatically synced. It’s work phone and laptop so I could have gone through OneDrive or Box but just as inconvenient as email. These are usually targeted at kids and newbies. My mom would 100% appreciate that feature for photos and pdfs. She still struggles with files on Windows and managing files are even less clear on chromebook. Yeah I and i suspect a lot of others email myself little files all the time because surprisingly that's the most convenient way to get those files quickly from phone to laptop. I do that all the time with my iPhone and my windows machine, sadly. Still not a particularly compelling feature, just speaks to how sad our modern ecosystem is. I feel like very much not the target market for this. Tokyo Vintage Shopping Trip? LOL I got mad when I bought a Chromebook thinking it was a cheap laptop I could install any OS on only to find it was boatloader locked and the model I bought hadnt been cracked yet. Say nothing of all of Google's recent practices with Android. This whole thing just sounds like the plague. Looks like their Reddit post has a formatting error? edit: hah, maybe someone from Google saw my comment. This has now been fixed and TKTK replaced with https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1tb83gy/making_and... TKTK is a common placeholder for something that should be filled in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_come_(publishing) Looks like the link got fixed. I'm really enjoying reddit just completely roasting the entire concept in the comments. I bet this is an LLM output mistake that escaped human proofreading. I had an instance of it this morning: Claude proposed a shell command containing a URL and it used this format, which is broken in context. Posting an official announcement of an AI-powered laptop on Reddit were the users there tend to have a hard Anti-AI stance is certainly something. I haven't been around reddit much for a few years, but in the past at least, /r/android was one of the best tech communities on the internet. It was even better than the iPhone subs for iPhone discussion. I mean if you think about it, the type of person to own an android phone and care enough about phones to join a community is pretty much guaranteed to only be a tech geek. AI mouse pointer is definitely not something I wanted to think about today. A recent HN post implored vibe coders not to modify the mouse pointer and now we get this from Google. "We’re working with Acer, ASUS, Dell, HP, and Lenovo to make the first Googlebooks." A disaster from the first step. Damn... ~1min in he verbally asks to put the 2 ingredients on the list. Like... my dude that's way even slower than drag&drop the text on a light right next to it! Same later on about changing the calendar appointment from whatever to 8pm... he is behind a desktop with a mouse, just input the number or click on the arrows to adjust. I bet some people will mention that those are "just" simple to understand examples or that it's great for accessibility ... but it's not. It's not reliable enough for complex cases and not reliable enough for accessibility. So... yes JUST basic examples that are slower than other means. PS: I did prototypes using voice and pointing in XR and yes that paradigm IS powerful, it's just being multimodal. Well, that AI mouse pointer idea is one of the most horrifying things I've seen in quite awhile. Hard pass, do not want, do not trust anyone involved. > It's really easy to access your phone’s files right from your Googlebook's file browser. Yeah but what about Windows Explorer? They've been passively blocking SMB access forever at this point (by disallowing ports below 1024). I would not be surprised if Googlebook's file browser goes via the cloud. Gross. This is just more proof that corporations simply don't know how to market AI. Everything is an ad for an ad at this point. The very first thing they show this new machine doing is helping people shop for clothes using AI. No one is doing that, these people don't exist. No matter how hard corporate America wishes they did. This is why AI doesn't sell. This is why companies like Microsoft and Dell are pulling back on their AI claims and why Apple has nearly wiped it off their site all together, seriously go check out apple.com, not a single mention of Apple Intelligence. At this point I'm convinced that marketing has been completely taken over by shareholder shills, marketing to customers they wish they had instead of the real customers that exist. > why Apple has nearly wiped it off their site all together, seriously go check out apple.com, not a single mention of Apple Intelligence. TBF, the reason Apple removed "Apple Intelligence" is that they failed to deliver on its promises. So much so that they just settled their false advertising in a class action lawsuit for $250M: Also, P.S: Not to say that clothing/shopping is the primary use case, but I know plenty of women who use AI for clothes/fashion/interior decoration etc related tasks. What feels already like old history is that Apple made a generous deal to OpenAI based on the premise that their AI could do the claims. Apple engineers spend months trying to prompt engineer their way, thinking the prompter is at fault if the soon to be AGI system diverged. Some of these instructions were trending out there, as reveals of how naive Apple was at the time.
They could be traced from the device's logs so not so much of a leak: Don't hallucinate, strictly follow instructions, followed by all sort of refined predicates, appended as if an LLM had reason Then Apple released a paper to warn everyone (well, a few, and to save face) that we are getting fooled. https://ml-site.cdn-apple.com/papers/the-illusion-of-thinkin... In case Apple is a biased anti AI propagandist, here is a similar, more recent research paper from MIT and co: My wife got upset with me when I dns-blocked all the ads. It sounds totally insane but we’re the minority here. That’s why Google is a $4.5 trillion company. I had a similar reaction from in-law family members. The main reason was that they wanted to be able to see the ads that unlocked more gameplay time on their free game. Just feels crazy to me, but I guess that's what addiction looks like. In their case it may rather be accepting the subsidies, trading precious time for pennies. Purchasing upon ads is the opposite. Trading dollars (and freewill) for time (along with painkiller to having to have personal taste) We are in the minority, but don't think the majority is the opposite and like this kind of thing. The majority just don't care at all about it. It's really not uncommon for me to speak to someone who actively doesn't want any sort of adblock on their computer. I would say maybe 5% of people, anecdotally, just don't want it, even when you're in front of their computer at that very moment, and offer, and insist that it would take 30 seconds to install. It's not a majority, but I found it surprising. On the spot. A lot of replies in this thread which outline "useful" AI features fail to acknowledge the same: this is hackernews, and it's a very specific and non representative slice of the population. This is Hacker News, where corporate loyalists line up to write screeds about how the population loves being screwed over by big tech. EDRi is in the minority, the EFF is in the minority, and so on. But someone has got to fight the corps, they can’t be the only ones dictating what’s socially acceptable. Ditto. It hadn’t even occurred to me that she was clicking on the damned things, but then I’d never thought to ask “hey, how did you find out about this useless Chinese plastic crap that lives in a drawer and is never used”. This. This is why "sync your files and cast your apps with 0 installs" are even being sold as features. Normies HATE customizing their devices. Children will literall reach for AI instead of search engines when they just want to change a background image. Jailbreak is a slur for "Installation" that tech companies want to keep that way. This is also true.Normies in no situation will customize their device anyhow. By that logic though wouldn’t Google have wildly successful products instead of a long line of failures? Googles product strategy is akin to throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Sure some stuff sticks but most falls off the wall and is axed barely half way into the product life cycle. You're on HN, you should be aware of the idea of not needing every product to succeed. They only need 1 in 10, or 1 in 20, or however many moonshots to succeed. You can not like that strategy, but it's basically the entire tech industry. No one around me cared about Google Reader / their RSS Reader. Pepole around me don't even know what google is doing besides search and probably maps. I'm the person with an adblocker, the others are not. Who is Googles target audiance? Its not me. I might only be a target for when i run some IT Platform in my work as an architect. >> Who is Googles target audiance? I think this is an easy question to answer: 1. what's your monthly ad spend? 2. how many ads did you view lasy week? You're probably not their target. Pretty much all companies have a long line of failed products, only the ones we heard have successful ones. Google is definitely one of the most successful companies ever existed > Sure some stuff sticks but most falls off the wall and is axed barely half way into the product life cycle. If you're not failing often, you're not an innovative company. People need to understand Google. They have a long line of failures, because they are an innovative company. Their whole goal is to scale products to billions of users. So if they release a product, and they see no path to billions of users they cut it and move on. This has always been the way Google has worked. This is why they are literally the most successful company in the history of the world. But they do have wildly successful products. They also have failures, then again most companies have failures as well at all points in the product cycle. > By that logic though wouldn’t Google have wildly successful products instead of a long line of failures? Failures like YouTube, GMail and Android? Two out of those were bought by Google. Sure, and Microsoft acquired DOS, and Adobe acquired Photoshop. At a certain point though, after 20+ years of development, you need to give some credit to the new owners for making it into what it is today. so you're saying Google DOESN'T have wildly successful products? That's definitely a hot take. Okay, I just have to pry here: why? Does she like ads? I don’t block ads. I like buying things. I go to work and make money. I’m going to spend some of it on stuff that looks nice and seems fun. Ads are a good way (not the only good way) to find out about new things to buy. I feel as if you're exactly the opposite of me. This feels, to me, like such an upside down, back-to-front position. If I need to buy something new in order feel like I'm having 'fun', then I try to ask 'why' as many times as necessary to work out what hole I'm actually trying to fill, or what scratch I'm trying to itch. There are a couple of second hand items I want to buy off Gumtree, but I have no immediate need for them, they'd be for some future situation that's more likely than not to be only theoretical. Knowing that they are there, available, makes me want them, rather than some actual existing purpose. > to find out about new things to buy. I would interpret this as "to find out why I should feel unhappy and empty that I don't own these things". On things that look nice, yes, I've got some nice art, but there's a limited amount of space in which to put up nice looking things, and if you're buying them frequently then you're either throwing out a lot or you're having to store a lot. Additionally, I don't think I've ever seen anything that looks remotely nice advertised on the Internet; or at least looks nice and isn't, in actuality, mass-produced shit that's been polished up. Having said that, if I had more money to throw away I'd do up my study like an old-school English manor-house library, full matching bookshelves, wainscoting, desk and chair. That's purely 'looks nice' and I would throw away the patchwork that currently furnishes my study. I'll say that's been advertised to me through (un)intentional 'product placement' in movies and TV shows, rather than Internet advertising though. I am a basic human being, however. Are you okay with google tracking everything you do to serve you more specific ads? To me that's like living in a transparent house where your landlord can always watch you but it's fine because you really like the nice showerhead. Exactly. Good ads are a service to me that inform me of things I want to buy. They aren't tricking me into buying stuff. Sometimes I see an ad and immediately believe the product would improve my life and it does. I think the problem with HN/Engineer types is they basically never see ads designed to appeal to them because they aren't a large enough audience. It's kind of amusing to me how such an obvious statement like this is getting downvoted so much. I suspect most people feel this way about ads and HN readers are more bothered by them than most people. (I hate ads too, but I think I understand the alternative perspective). I've installed a lot of adblockers for non-hacker type people over the years. As far as I've seen, no one has ever asked or attempted to uninstall them. I think most people are mostly fine with ads, but prefer life without them. Even as a kid, me and all my friends used to groan when the commercial breaks came on. I've been muting commercials since I knew how to use a mute button. Most people don't like ads and also like free stuff moreso than they dislike ads. let's be clear: Google is a titan because they successfully sold ads to people who sold to you. We were never the target market beyond building a monopoly on eyeballs, and it's questionable if their ad empire continues. Outside of that they've had very few successes, and while traditionally the hardware is high quality, the bundled services and level of enshitification now is a no-go for my family. If you're buying into the single vendor for the rest of your life, the choice is currently Apple IMO, because they're "least bad". Why wouldn't I use AI to shop for clothes? I'm not much into fashion, but I could see using AI to help me search for a winter parka that meets my needs, for example. And I did use AI recently when shopping for a car. After doing a bunch of research on my own, I decided why not try feeding my criteria into ChatGPT and see what it recommends. And it did actually recommend a couple of models that I had not previously considered, including one that I ended up considering very seriously. I also pointed it towards some used listings and asked questions like "does this listing have ventilated rear seats" - and it was able to respond that it likely doesn't, and told me where to look for the controls in photos to verify for certain. I probably could have figured out on my own with a bit of digging, or else contact the seller, but this was a pretty quick and easy way to get the information I was looking for. Is that gross? I didn't look too closely at the Googlebook, so I don't know why I would use that instead of just an app on my MacBook. But at some point when competent models can be run on comodity hardware I think hardware and OS-level support for AI will definitely become a selling point for me. We're just not quite there yet. I guess the pragmatic answer is that you don’t need AI for that. You need good filters. I don’t like Zalando one bit, but I’ll grant them that it’s easy to find the right clothes on their website because they have very good filters. LLMs don’t ‘know’ if a pair of jeans is a tapered slim fit with a gusseted crotch, at least not by default. But if the brand uploaded them as such, the filters will find them. That’s just a quick take. I’ve tried to shop with LLMs and the results are mediocre at best. Of course search, filtering, and content tagging could always be improved, instead of “just slap AI on it”. It's worth pointing out that in the Googlebook video she's not asking Gemini to shop for her. She starts with a picture of herself, and asks Gemini to combine it with vintage clothing photos from a website she was browsing, to help visualize what she would look like in those clothes. This is more than just search + filtering. I've done similar things when trying to visualize home improvements, and find that it really is a useful way to help validate my ideas. So far a lot of the negative responses I've gotten have been along the lines of "only a fool would let AI do your thinking for you". But I find that it's a useful tool sharpening my thinking. Brainstorming, overcoming my own personal biases and gaps in my knowledge, idea validation, etc. Like "rubber ducking" [1], but the duck actually responds with some pretty insightful advice with surprising frequency. Do I "need" AI for shopping? No, of course not. Can it reduce friction and lead to more informed buying decisions in certain cases? In my experience, yes. Of course I've seen plenty of useless "just slap AI on it" jobs, too. Netflix put out an AI chatbot that I found particularly egregious, for example (I think maybe they've taken it down since). I didn't find Amazon's "Rufus" to be very trustworthy, either. And I know I'm coming across as pro-AI here, but in other matters I have plenty of serious concerns about AI. I'm just hoping to have a more nuanced conversation than "shopping with AI? Gross!". Or "only a fool would use a product built by greedy corporations!" [1] https://theconversation.com/stuck-on-a-problem-talking-to-a-... Given how Search-Engine-Optimisation (SEO) has been gamed, what will make you think that somehow this NEW system, that's really prone to prompt hacking & already promotes sponsors' products over alternatives, won't be? For me it doesn't need to be a perfect, bias-free information source (no such thing exists). It doesn't need to solve all my problems. It just has to be useful in certain contexts, and I will use it while also trying to be aware of its limitations and conducting my own "sanity checks" to make sure the information can be trusted. Nobody is picking their laptop for the best AI integration. You can do those things just as well on every other platform. In fact, additional AI integration is universally a turnoff to most normal people. Uhm, the only reason I bought a refurbished laptop last year (an M3 Max with more RAM than I've ever had before) was to run models locally. If Google was launching a new laptop that was meant to run models locally I would be really excited. The key phrase from GP is "most normal people." You are, with love, a particular kind of freak. As are we all. “Nobody” is pretty universal, yet there are plenty of people now buying new computers specifically for their local AI capabilities. It’s not all Mac minis, some of us prefer laptops. By "AI integration" we are talking about UI, not running local models. See the link this thread is about. My terse answer to, 'Why not use AI to shop for [X]' is that if you are letting AI do the shopping for you at any level, you aren't actually distinguishing products by features or quality or it's ability to solve a problem. You are being fed junk that is likely paid to be moved to the top of the list. It's probably a nice feeling when you can put in a list of soft requirements to ChatGPT et al and get a list of things it recommends, but I would suggest you are a fool if you think those listings aren't bought and paid for. In an era where the gap between a 'good product' and a 'bad product' is growing ever larger and the price is not an indicator of anything, the onus to actually become knowledgeable re: "How to identify products worth buying" is becoming greater and greater. If you are using AI to do the shopping for you, not only are you not building that muscle, you are actively weakening it as a chatbot convincingly recommends something to you based on unverifiable platitudes about 'quality' and 'value' - a recommendation that was, again, bought and paid for. So yeah, that's gross and I would argue pretty strongly that it's just as brain rot adjacent as something like Tiktok. Like Tiktok though, I expect it will see at least some level of popular use, and also like Tiktok, I think it'll end up making the population dumber on average. I can very clearly imagine it always going for branded products where brand is not required, unless specifically prompted not to, which the average person won't do. > I need dishwasher tablets Could mean buy a 30 pack for £25 which have all the marketing buzz surrounding them, or buy the own brand 45 pack for £5 which does the job just as well. > I would suggest you are a fool if you think those listings aren't bought and paid for. At no point in the process did ChatGPT direct me to any listings. I fed it my criteria, and it gave back a text response listing car models that met my criteria. The only links it included were links to reddit posts and other car reviews. And the results were useful to me because they pointed out where my own pre-existing biases had caused me to overlook one model that I probably should have paid more attention to. What you are suggesting feels more like a potential future threat than my actual experience thus far. I found the listings by conducting a separate search on a used car listing website - and the number of matches that met my criteria were small enough that I was basically able to look exhaustively through all the matches. But shopping for used cars can be a little confusing at times because there are a lot of different configurations that change every year. Sometimes the listing might just say something like "2022 Touring, Safety Package" and include a bunch of photos - and identifying whether a given listing has a particular feature you are looking for requires some investigation (ideally they would include a full list of options, but often times they don't). Or often times the listing itself might contain incorrect information. And I found ChatGPT to be a useful tool for quickly making sense of the various configurations, and of course conduct my own sanity checks to be sure the information is not hallucinated. I'm not suggesting you should solely rely on AI for shopping (although in some cases for low-risk purchases it may be fine) - but rather as an additional tool to aid in research and decision making. > What you are suggesting feels more like a potential future threat than my actual experience thus far. Do we really have to litigate this? Have you been on the Internet at all in the last 2 decades? Do you seriously think that even if that kind of advertising vector isn't being paid for today, it won't be tomorrow? It is almost childishly naive to assume that these companies that are bleeding billions will have the ethical fortitude to say 'no' to Chevy / Ford / Jeep / Whoever when they offer them a check to make sure Toyota and Honda are unceremoniously just de-prioritized as recommendations. --- Beyond that, the issue is still that you are not going to get complete market coverage. It's feasible that you might on certain smaller market segments (Cars, for example), but something with much more producers and products in the segment has no chance. You would be better off spending the time to understand the market, what differentiates the products in it, and how to think about the parameters involved - all things that are being just abstracted away by asking a Chatbot for a list of requirements. > Have you been on the Internet at all in the last 2 decades? Do you seriously think that even if that kind of advertising vector isn't being paid for today, it won't be tomorrow? Conflicts of interest are nothing new - dating back to newspapers, radio, television, and search engines. And yet in all of these mediums companies have figured out how to display sponsored content while still maintaining the trust of their users. AI companies have a similar vested interest in maintaining their users’ trust (not to mention adherence to current and future advertising regulations). > Do we really have to litigate this? Yes, if you are going to assume the worst possible outcome, then you must also explain why other outcomes - such as clearly distinguishing sponsored content from “informational” content - are not possible. > Beyond that, the issue is still that you are not going to get complete market coverage. Which non-AI information sources promise complete market coverage? > You would be better off spending the time to understand the market, what differentiates the products in it, and how to think about the parameters involved I agree this should be the end goal in decision making. And in my experience AI can be a useful tool to get there. > all things that are being just abstracted away by asking a Chatbot for a list of requirements. ChatGPT doesn’t just give a list of results without context. It’s also quite good about justifying why it gives the results that it does. And you are free to ask follow-up questions, and fact check the responses against other sources. I treat it the same as basically any other information source that I come across. I fully understand that it is not perfect. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not useful. > being fed junk As if the products you find in mass market brick'n'mortar stores are any different. Or the information I would be fed if I walked into a car dealership and asked a dealer. Unbiased information has never been a thing, and while AI introduces a set of tools along with a new set of risks, it doesn't really change the fundamental problem of needing to vet your information against trusted sources. They on average, are. That's kind of my point. Yes, if you engage with the 'designed marketing channels' for products, you will end up with junk. If you want to have stuff that isn't junk, you need to do some leg work. A chatbot will not do that for you. > The very first thing they show this new machine doing is helping people shop for clothes using AI. > No one is doing that, these people don't exist I don't know what world you live in but I personally know at least 4 people (all female interestingly) who regularly use ChatGPT to give outfit advice and when clothes shopping. One has manually taken photos of clothes laid out separately so she can put different combinations into ChatGPT and ask if they work together. I don't live in the US. "This outfit is bold and shows off your strong personality, a perfect choice for today!" It's May and you chose a bright green and red sweater with a picture of Santa Clause. "You're absolutely right! Maybe this would be a better choice for December." I work routinely from coffee shops. Literally like 80% of people on their laptops have Claude or ChatGPT open when I glance over. Listen, I do think AI still has a LONG way to go to be the automation & productivity utopia we so desperately crave, but underselling its usefulness is just silly at this point. I used to be vehemently against AI coding just a few years ago, because the hallucinations were a deal-breaker. However, these days, most of my code is written using AI. It's still very "corporate junior" so it takes constant tweaking, hand re-writing, or total re-architecting, but it's leaps and bounds better than what it was. And I find myself working on the interesting parts: product, user experience, novel algorithms, etc. These Gen AI tools have proved to be incredibly sticky! I genuinely don’t think when Chat GPT 3.5 launched, that anyone believed people would integrate the usage of them as quickly and solidly as they have. So Im with you on this, people use Chat GPT, Claude and so on for anything and everything. > I personally know at least 4 people (all female interestingly) You’re on HN and know 4 females, that’s the truly interesting part :-) Sry to say this, but I honestly just want a working shopping AI model. I want to make a picture from me, add perhaps height and one or a second other metric, then i want it to generate styles for me, finetune it with me and then it helps me buy it. I'm waiting for this for ages as i HATE shopping but I would find it nice to look better. Nonetheless, when I saw this page for the first time, i was very impressed with the case not with anything related to softeware. Might be a second type of device which might be a good alternative to an apple product. Framework and now this (perhaps) If such an AI shopping thing existed, I wouldn’t trust it to do a good job. We consumers probably wouldn’t pay enough for it in enough volume to be the customers (Are you a Stitch Fix subscriber? Why not?). The fashion brands would be the customers and we’d be sold to them. The AI tools would tell you and show you that your skin tone really works well with a shirt from $BRAND who bid the highest that day, and the brand that can afford to do that won’t be one with low margins (aka: a good deal), it’ll be one with high margins, and that means some combination of cheap construction and high price. I'm tall and thin. When i want to shop a sport shirt, i would go to Adidas (german company, german person) and would accept the brand markup just to get something 'stable' and more controlled quality control despite the shirt being a lot cheaper somewere else. Despite this, adidas does not have a tall thin filter despite them selling tall thin shirts in shops. I do not know why. Now i have to start searching around what brands have this option to filter. I do not know why ecommerce online is so shit at least it feels shit for me. If AI would find something in that price range and it would just work, man i would be happy. I actually worked in ecommerce, including clothing brands. In one company, we built our own bespoke ecommerce website, using third party software only for the fulfillment part. In another, we used Shopify. Building your own is expensive, which is a stretch to cover with the margins of ecommerce and not go broke. And the off-the-shelf things are shockingly bad in their core functionality (e.g. Shopify, which may actually be the most developer-friendly and innovative, has no native concept of a color swatch that works the way you'd expect, nor does it have filtering other than by a single, painfully-manual, non-composable "tag" feature). Shopify's got a huge ecosystem of one-trick-pony "Apps" that add all the missing features, but running 50 "apps" doesn't fix things either - not only can they be fundamentally incompatible with each other, but nothing can fix the underlying deficiencies of the core data models (or if I'm being more charitable, their suitability for one's unique business domain). > Adidas (german company, german person) Brands fit for the country of the store. For example, you won't find anything for a tall but not wide person in Singapore, except a few special stores, that won't be Adidas for sure. Unless ordering from overseas (and that costs nice money). Because market. 1% just isn't worth it. If giving the customer more filter/searching power was something companies wanted, Amazon's search result page wouldn't be like visiting a flea market. I'm pretty sure what Decart is building does exactly what you want. I saw a demo - it took you, put a piece of clothing on you, and showed in realtime how that clothing moved on your body in the size you'd selected. I think it even picked the size. Huh, I shopped for clothes using AI today. Not super relevant to the Googlebook ad, but in case the perspective is interesting to you: I'm quite tall (194cm) but not very wide, so I usually struggle with buying clothes online. I used AI to scrape a bunch of clothing stores to see whether they sold a men's shirt with an LT or slim fit size, in stock, and matching a particular vibe. This just shows how bad search engines have become. About 15 years ago you could type fully worded questions into Google and would be pointed to the exact sentence of a website that answers your question. I happened so slowly, we were all frogs in boiling water. An the same will happen to AI. We will remember these days as the golden age for AI, where you weren't required to prompt an AI three times before it answers with a non-ad response. The “nice” thing with AI is that the nudging can be so subtle you don’t even realize you’re being influenced for money. What people think commercial AI is: a friend What it actually is: a salesperson It took the mass public a long time (15 years?) to realize search engines had shifted from the former to the latter, and that allowed Google to leverage that misplaced trust into huge profits. Expect commercial AI to be the same, unless it's explicitly set up otherwise (read: Kagi assistant). This reminds me of an old video about a guy that got invited to stay in the penthouse suites of casinos. In the video, he has a 'friend' who organises these trips for him (the friend works for the casinos). This guy couldn't recognise the conflict of interest, and neither will 80%+ of AI users. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzbz0HDVKEs
"Louis Theroux visits top gambler's Hilton hotel suite - Gambling in Las Vegas - BBC" Google is the first company which developed, demonstrated and earned an award for inserting advertisements in AI generated text. It even supports bidding for the ad space! Source: https://research.google/blog/mechanism-design-for-large-lang... You're right but I think AIs can be better than Google at it's height. But whether it's search or AI-chat, what's annoying is efforts to have it replace that things that exist rather than serving as useful addition. I use ChatGPT X many times a day (or hour) but unless I ask for an AI's opinion, I don't want it. This is kinda the exception that proves the rule. I can imagine lots of cases where people with specific needs would find benefit from the “AI clothes buying” experience, but I will bet you anything that any searches you try to do will lead you to the same half-dozen giant mail-order clothing vendors that everyone already knows about. > exception that proves the rule That's not how that works; "someone is doing this" doesn't prove a rule "no one is doing this" -- quite the opposite "The exception that proves the rule" is for things like "closed Thursdays" (rule = open on other days), "no parking after 8 PM" (rule = parking allowed before 8 PM), "no refunds on games" (rule = refunds available on other items), etc. You're confusing "The Exception That Proves the Rule" (in English, as used colloquially) with "exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis" (in Latin, which has a use similar to what you're describing.) While the law attempts to be precise, common usage embraces ambiguity. > exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis Or more succinctly, as first-year law students learn: Expressio unius est exclusio alterius — to state one thing is to implicitly exclude others. https://definitions.lsd.law/expressio-unius-est-exclusio-alt... They really mean the same. What changed was the meaning of the word "proves" in English. When the saying was coined it meant "tests", not "confirms". People kept saying the...saying even though they were using it backwards. Which is amusing because “proving grounds” is still using the old definition of “proves” :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule: > "The exception that proves the rule" is a saying whose meaning is contested. Henry Watson Fowler's Modern English Usage identifies five ways in which the phrase has been used… Personally, I use it in cases like: - Rule: Don't do X, it's a bad idea. - Exception: One time, someone with very special circumstances did X, and with a lot of finagling and effort they managed to make it work sort of OK. Or: - Rule: This fortress was an impregnable defensive position. - Exception: In A.D. 1305, the fortress was taken, with great difficulty and many casualties, by an attacking army 100 times larger than the defending force. Or: - Rule: This river never overflows its banks. - Exception: Once in history, on the day of the biggest rainstorm in 1000 years, the river is recorded to have overflowed its banks very slightly for a short time. The exception proves the rule because the circumstances necessary for the exception to occur were themselves exceptional. But we all knew what they meant and here you are being tedious about it I didn't really know what they meant by it. Sounds like "the fact that you do this proves that nobody does it". I believe the phrase is used to mean something like "the fact that you found something that is obviously an exception proves that the rule normally applies." For example, imagine if your skydiving instructor said "if your parachute doesn't open when you jump out of the airplane, you're gonna die", and you replied with "well actually that's not true, Vesna Vulović survived a fall from high altitude." Yeah, okay. The fact that you had to be smarty-pants about it and dig up a random exception really proves the point they were trying to make. In this example the “exception” that proves the rule though was not a smarty-pants special circumstance. Using AI for shopping is just one of its many normal usages and if anything proves it is used by normal people doing normal things. It’s not like the rare example that happens once in a hundred years. Ok but I’m not sure the relevance here? Everyone has unique needs, if they want to get specific enough. The promise of AI here is that anyone can get as absurdly specific as they want, instead of accepting whatever advertising bucket they’d be traditionally sorted into. Fair enough, I can buy that. I feel like in most cases where I've heard it it wasn't nearly so clear cut, so that logic wasn't obvious and it sounded like nonsense (Also that story is nuts! https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovi%C4%87) This exactly. People on this website are so fucking pedantic and argumentative over the most obvious or inconsequential minutiae it drives me nuts. Comparing the tone of your message with its parent, do you not see the irony?
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`[text](link)` is the syntax used to create a link. But since `TKTK` isn't a valid URI, it doesn't render a link. My guess is TKTK is placeholder and they were supposed to fill it in before posting on reddit... but forgot? ...as computing shifts from operating systems [to intelligence systems](TKTK)...
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