What our DNA reveals about the sex life of Neanderthals

39 points by Hooke 3 days ago

Before anyone jaunts too far down the road of literal survivorship bias, I'd like to point out that it'd be incredibly premature—or perhaps way too late—to speculate much on the social side of things.

Elsewhere I've seen some people making hay about exactly whose-males were with whose-females, and want to point out that it's normal for genes to cause asymmetries.

In particular, consider the modern problem of RH incompatibility [0], where one pairing is more likely to end up with a child than an identical but gender-bent one.

[0] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21053-rh-fact...

maxrf - 6 hours ago

or even as simple as mitochondria...

marojejian - 3 days ago

Boy it so tempting to come up with "just so" stories to explain this. And so frustrating that we will probably never be able to determine the answer. but still cool.

b112 - 2 hours ago

One thing, this jives in some fashion.

If we all seem to have neanderthal DNA in us, then we're all the progeny of someone which, to a degree, preferred certain "cross-pollination" behaviours.

Certainly, there would have been no revulsion. And potentially, there would have been preference. So if so, well.. why wouldn't that preference continue in the line?

vasco - an hour ago

> Certainly, there would have been no revulsion
Farmers have sex with goats.
I think you underestimate the places a lonely guy is willing to put his dick in.
- ThrowawayTestr - an hour ago
  
  Manatees were the choice for sailors

jyscao - 6 hours ago

Presumably this hypothesis is meant to explain why there is this observed asymmetry in the type of Neanderthal DNA we find in modern human populations that contain them, which is entirely autosomal. With none in the mitochondrial form, which is exclusively passed down along the female line, and also none in the Y-chromosome form, which is exclusively passed down along the male line.

Without weighing on the validity of their hypothesis that one or both sides found the other“especially attractive”, an alternative mechanism that could explain why we only see Neanderthal autosomal DNA in modern humans could be that only the female offspring of male-Neanderthal and female-sapiens pairings were reproductively fertile. This is more commonly the case in interspecies hybrids, see Haldane’s rule.

faangguyindia - 2 hours ago

Y chromosome is passed as is (baring few mutations) and same is true for mtdna.
Autosomal region is what acquires most ancestral dna as it's the one which recombines.
raducu - 2 hours ago

> Without weighing on the validity of their hypothesis that one or both sides found the other“especially attractive”
I get that it's survivor bias and all, but modern racial preference also paints a clear picture, I don't understand why we are so against this hypothesis that male homo sapiens did not particularly like the female neanderthal (I can clearly see why as any modern male would).
We found neanderthal fossils with sapiens DNA (afir it was something like 7% so not sterile hybrids, but a few generations after the hybridisation). I don't think we have ANY evidence for non viability of male sapiens + female neanderthal non-viability, we just don't like the fact that this viability proves the asymetri.
Perhaps because modern psyche loves to picture males as sexual brutes and women as these higher wonderful rosy elves and this "shocking" neanderthal(i.e. "beastly") preference goes strongly against this meme?
Why would it be so inconcievable that the male part of homo sapiens drove the sexual selection for the more "refined" features of the species and the preference for intelligence of women was not intrinsic but partially "forced" -- i.e. warbrides and all -- so it would make perfect sense that some homo sapiens women would be attracted to the physical strength cues of male neanderthals, just like... gasp... modern women are?
microgpt - 6 hours ago

why no mitochondrial then?
- jyscao - 6 hours ago
  
  Because these hybrids would contain mtDNA from their human female line. Neanderthal mtDNA could only be passed down by Neanderthal females.
  And because none of those are found in any modern human populations, we can conclude no humans today are descended from female Neanderthals. Though whether hybridized descendants from male-sapiens female-Neanderthal pairings never existed, or they did exist for some time then eventually went extinct, we cannot currently say with certainty.
  - vintermann - 3 hours ago
    
    Strictly speaking we don't know that. It may always turn up an extremely rare Y or mtdna variant which was thought to be extinct. Ötzi's mt like was thought to be extinct (Wikipedia page even still says so) but very recently a North African man took a full mtdna test and it turned out he had the same. That could happen with neanderthal variants too for all we know.
  - jjtheblunt - 5 hours ago
    
    > we can conclude no humans today are descended from female Neanderthals.
    that looks worded wrong, strictly speaking. if there's a male neanderthal ancestor, then he very likely has a neanderthal mom or grandma or ... great^N grandma for some N.
    
    jyscao - 4 hours ago
    
    Ok yes, you're right. Guess I meant to say: no humans today are descended from someone between a male sapenis-female Neanderthals hybrid.
- b112 - 2 hours ago
  
  We don't know that. I cannot imagine we have a perfectly accurate mapping of all mDNA neanderthals had. All current mDNA could actually have been neanderthal at one point in history.
  How would we know otherwise? With absolute accuracy?
  We certainly don't have access to thousands upon thousands of samples. Do we?
  (I genuinely wonder this now)

dzink - 4 hours ago

One reason for that might be the size of the baby homo sapiens scull/head upon birth. Bigger brain might have meant female Neanderthals couldn’t give birth to Homo Sapiens babies. Just a theory.

senderista - 3 hours ago

Neanderthals had larger cranial capacity than modern humans.
- tempestn - 3 hours ago
  
  Possibly not at birth?
aurareturn - an hour ago

You do realize that Neanderthals had significantly bigger brain sizes than Homo sapiens?

nemosaltat - 6 hours ago

In those days, there were γίγαντες and also after.

jjtheblunt - 6 hours ago

evidently, i'm not the only one who has watched Ancient Aliens (though with the fam for historical mysteries blended with hilarity)

DeathArrow - 2 hours ago

I always wondered if Neanderthals disappeared or if they melted in the general human population since it was quite possible their numbers were much smaller than Homo Sapiens.

rayiner - 6 hours ago

I can’t believe people are being so flippant describing this story (“sex life”) when there’s a high probability that the differential is because neanderthal males were raping homo sapiens females. Neanderthals had much higher muscle mass and were much stronger than homo sapiens.

SoftTalker - 5 hours ago

We don't know that, and we don't know that neanderthal males were more prone to rape than homo sapiens males. And it's weird to even apply the 21st century concept of rape to prehistoric societies.
- bloqs - 4 hours ago
  
  I have to agree, theres a bizarre and worrying internet-brained hysterical element to that original comment which betrays a totally absent education.
  the casual title is because of the scientific and prehistoric nature of the subject
- - 4 hours ago
  
  [deleted]
- TimorousBestie - 4 hours ago
  
  However, if one happens to be a race science type, there’s a lot of profit that can be made telling suggestive “just so” stories about which homo sapiens genetic lines are allegedly tainted with a larger proportion of neanderthal genes, or however that’s supposed to work.
  - rayiner - 4 hours ago
    
    It would be an afrocentric trope because it’s Europeans that have the most neanderthal genes.
    
    faangguyindia - 2 hours ago
    
    Wrong, East Asians have.
    And South Asians have nearly same as Europeans.
    
    Qwertious - 3 hours ago
    
    And because Europeans have the most Neanderthal genes, it's all "Neanderthals are smarter than we thought!" and not "are Europeans the missing link?"
rokhayakebe - 4 hours ago

Or that during the migration men died or were captured and killed.
TurdF3rguson - 4 hours ago

> neanderthal males were raping homo sapiens females.
I guess you'd rather not even be here?
lifestyleguru - 4 hours ago

> the differential is because neanderthal males were raping homo sapiens females
They were simply more attractive to homo sapiens females because of more chest hair, muscles, and better defined jawline.
- - 4 hours ago
  
  [deleted]
DeathArrow - 2 hours ago

>neanderthal males were raping homo sapiens females. Neanderthals had much higher muscle mass and were much stronger than homo sapiens.
It's quite possible that at that point in time nobody was asking for permission and most sex would have been what we qualify today as rape.
- trick-or-treat - 2 hours ago
  
  [dead]
rngfnby - 6 hours ago

Well, ya. Of course it was rape. And in retaliation we genocided them, hence the lack of Y and mRNA.
- treyd - 4 hours ago
  
  > and mRNA
  This might be seen as a bit of a nitpick but I believe you mean mtDNA (mitochondrial).
- jyscao - 5 hours ago
  
  >And in retaliation we genocided them
  This is far from being the only or even main explanation to their extinction.
  The Neanderthal populations were extremely inbred, so I'd guess that was a bigger factor to their decline.

catcowcostume - 6 hours ago

Is there any non-paywalled link for this?

jyscao - 5 hours ago

Any browser with reader mode should also work. Worked for me on Brave, both mobile and desktop.
coolius - 4 hours ago

here's an iOS shortcut that automates the process: https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/81c670b532e340e38a35cc62e3e...
garciasn - 6 hours ago

https://archive.is/9mQKV
For future reference: head on over to archive.is or .ph and you, too, can get around the paywall.
Beijinger - 5 hours ago

I recommend the "Pass paywalls clean" plug-in