I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure
coinerella.com463 points by willy__ 5 hours ago
463 points by willy__ 5 hours ago
I've witnessed quite a few attempts in this regard, and they're truly admirable. Although Gitea's trademark and domain are controlled by China.
From a geopolitical perspective, such attempts don't hold much significance. The EU's future doesn't lie here either. It lies more in media control, profiting from balancing between the US, China, and Russia, and even continuing to extract raw materials from former colonies through low prices or unfair contracts. This may not be glorious, but it's what's been happening all along. A vast consumer market, the influence of values, comprehensive soft power, cultural control and integration of large numbers of immigrants, and so on. "Made in EU" will never succeed.
Great post, I did a similar switch mid last year.
Hetzner was something I already used, so I just doubled down. I have a single OVH instance where I ma playing with Openclaw, but that was because I was having issues with Hetzner that day on their new instance page (was fixed the next day)
I use Bunny for my CDN, I just wish they have the capabilityt to route IPv4 and IPv6 traffic to IPv6 only origins. If your origin doesn't have IPv4, it wont route IPv4 to an IPv6 origin. Something Cloudflare could do. Still a shame its not a high priority.
For Domains, I am still on porkbun, but i have like 20 domains, and moving them to EU registrars would be pricey. I will do it, just not looking forward to it. Also there are few registrars tht handle all the TLDs i have, nothing like Porkbun. I use dot.bs to optimize my registrars and keep track of them.
I self-host a lot, but I haven't done github. I have a Forgejo instance with working CI/CD, but there are some painpoints mirroring 100s of repos and updating PATs. Also I minimize how much critical infra I host. I do it as my day job. Don't want to do it so much at home, and I still do some between NAS and self-hosted services I do run.
I do plan to try out Hanko and Nebius, those sound good. and Hit up scaleway to see if there is stuff I want to use there. I know Scaleway can be pricey.
Like the author, we self-host our git repos at work with Gitea, and it's working very well and brings a rather large set of features you'd expect from a GH alternative.
A great thing is that it's almost fully compatible with Github actions, so migrating an existing CI/CD should not be too painful. If you plan to move, make sure to read this first: https://docs.gitea.com/usage/actions/comparison#missing-feat...
For sure, it requires a bit of maintenance, mainly for updates, but that's all.
For CDN, you can try CDN77, they have servers all around the world. No affil, just they are based in Europe (Prague) :)
Right now, I would only switch from Bunny if they allow IPv6-only origin servers and route IPv4 traffic to it.
Also no pricing and a "Talk to sales" only link. Which usually means super expensive, or B2B only. I pay like 10 cents a month on Bunny something
Ah yeah I see CDN77 has no signup button and just says "Talk to sales" instead. That's not helpful to small self hosters.
Even for big corp.
When I see "talk to sales" I just move on. I don't have time to waste on that.
How has your experience with Bunny been? I'm quite split on it.
I used to work for a business in a pretty competitive area, where tactics like fake DMCA requests and abuse cases are routinely used to attempt to take down information, be it from Google, or from the CDN/hosting provider. While at first Bunny support seemed understanding of it, later they unceremoniously blocked the account on the basis of too many complaints having been filed, despite all of them being responded to in due time and being proven false.
OTOH, their support staff would respond lightning-fast, which was a breath of fresh air compared to other CDNs we used before.
I could see myself using Bunny for personal projects, or some non-vital business, but probably not for anything with lots of competition.
it's a super cheap "CDN" that runs on Hetzner and random hosts or their colo, it's not as proper as the other ones.
for anything DMCA heavy maybe just buying dedicated servers or something instead could work?
For domains i find Openprovider.eu is pretty cheap imo, especially if you have a lot and buy in a package it is nearly costprice. Their DNS isn't great though, good enough for personal projects but not for business, would set that somewhere else.
Hmm, seems the good prices is only if you subscribe to their subscription. 5 euro a month or 50 euro a year, then the prices get slashed. Othewise their prices are expensive.
How does dot.bs make money? The about page and FAQ don’t explain what they’re monetizing.
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No. This is not true. Hetzner is fully owned by a German company.
https://www.northdata.de/Hetzner+Online+GmbH,+Gunzenhausen/A...
And it wasn't true in 2022.
Do you have a source for this? First time I am hearing about that one. The German hosting CEO circle is pretty intimate and I gathered that Martin Hetzner is still around.
You might be confused with their new-ish US datacenter? Hetzner is still European-owned.
Pretty sure this is wrong. On their website [1], the "about us" page mentions a GmbH and an Oy
- Hetzner Online GmbH, Germany
- Hetzner Finland Oy, Finland
Uhh, can I get a source on this? I can not find a single mention of this anywhere and it seems the company is still independent and German.
Thank you for this. I'm in Europe with an established SaaS that's been running in production for years and I've converged on a similar stack (OVHCloud instead of Hetzner). However, I've realized you can stay sovereign and independent in any jurisdiction (not just Europe) just by simplifying your stack and running a few baremetal servers in-house.
Just buy a few Mac Studios and run them in-house with power supply backup and networking redundancy and you're good to go to serve more than 10k - 100k requests/second which is good enough to serve a million customers. You don't need VMs: a single Mac Studio gets you 2–4x the power of m7i.2xlarge on AWS, and pays for itself within a few months of AWS bills. You can do local AI inference and get Claude Opus-level performance (Kimi K2.5) over a cluster of Mac Studios with Exo.Labs (an unofficial Apple partner). You get free S3-compatible object storage with zero ongoing storage costs with MinIO (yes it's redundant even if you lose a server, and your hosting provider can't hold your data hostage by charging for egress). Postgres runs like a beast and is incredibly easy to setup - you get zero latency DB because it runs on the same machine, has access to lots of RAM and you're not paying per-GB or per-core. Managed databases are a scam. You don't need an Auth provider, just do passkeys yourself. And the great thing about Apple Silicon hardware is that it is amazingly quiet, reliable, and efficient - you can do thing like run headless browsers 3x faster and cheaper than on standard server hardware because of the unified memory and GPU acceleration, so you're not paying for CI/CD compute by-the-minute or headless browsers either.
This entire stack could give you computing power equivalent to a 25k euro/month AWS bill for the cost of electricity (same electricity cost as running a few fridges 24/7) plus about 50k euros one-time to set it up (about 4 Mac Studios). And yes, it's redundant, scalable, and even faster (in terms of per-request latency) than standard AWS/GCP cloud bloat. Not only is it cheaper and you own everything, but your app will work faster because all services are local (DB, Redis cache, SSD, etc.) without any VM overhead, shared cores, or noisy neighbours.
Thanks for the post. How do you currently deal with HD failures/redundancy? That’s my main concern leaving a managed database provider.
I've designed our app so that there are only two stateful services that matter: Database and Disk. Everything else is cattle, you can shut down or spin up new instances and the load balancer redirects requests with no impact. Making Postgres redundant is a matter of careful configuration with PGBouncer + HAProxy + Patroni. However for a long time we had a much simpler setup: just restore a new database from backup on a new machine if the main one failed (one-time simple script run manually - not automatic, means a little bit of downtime if there's a failure, but it worked). Or you could use CockroachDB. Making disk redundant: just use MinIO for S3-like disk (that's also where DB backups are stored). You can lose up to 2 out 4 of your servers and you lose nothing.
With this setup if 1 or 2 Mac Studios fail (or need to be restarted for updates) everything just keeps running smoothly with no customer impact. It also helps that the app itself is on the Elixir BEAM (Phoenix) so everything "just works" across all machines.
cheers. Had never heard of MinIO either, very cool.
Do note MinIO is deprecated and no longer maintained, discussed here[1]. There are plenty of alternatives though, most mentioned in the referenced submission.
MinIO was a previously open source blob store. It's pretty old, it was basically created right around the time S3 took off.
You should probably reconsider going with it in 2026 unless you're fine with their new (non -opensource) offering. It still has a "free" license, so it might still be an option depending on your priorities.
But there are alternatives around, some being arguably much easier to run/maintain for small deployments like this.
>However, I've realized you can stay sovereign and independent in any jurisdiction (not just Europe) just by simplifying your stack and running a few baremetal servers in-house.
Only if you have physical offices and staff in every jurisdiction you're serving.
Presumably you have a home where you live? That's your physical office. And no you don't need a presence in every jurisdiction you serve. Visa payment network serves the world from the US.
>Presumably you have a home where you live?
Yes, but not where my customers live. The whole point of "sovereignty" is to serve customers from a location that is bound by the laws of _their_ jurisdiction, not mine.
But for that it does not matter that much where the servers are located, more where the company controlling them is located.
There are quite a few factors that matter. The place where data processing and storage takes place is one of them.
It matters who can physically take control of the servers. It matters where the encryption keys are stored. The storage and processing location also matters for compliance with data residency laws.
But it's not the only thing I mentioned. Having physical offices and staff in a jurisdiction usually goes along with setting up some sort of legal and taxable entity that has personally responsible directors.
The whole issue is very complicated.
> Managed databases are a scam.
I, too, once believed this. Then I had the displeasure of watching a $10,000 server fail during Christmas travel (about 20 years ago now). A single RAID drive failed. Then, during the rebuild, a second drive failed. Then the RAID controller itself failed catastrophically, losing all the RAID volume metadata. When we restored from backup, we discovered that the sysadmin who had just quit a few weeks before had lied to us about the backup system, and we had no backups.
This is the sort of black swan event that happens every 5-10 years. It's an unusually bad event, even by black swan standards, but stuff like this happens.
The fundamental problem of self-hosted databases is that you test the happy path every day, but you only test true disaster recovery every 5-10 years. And in practice, this means that disaster recovery will usually fail.
With a managed database service, most of what you're paying goes to making sure that disaster recovery works. And in my experience, it does. I've seen RDS database servers fail catastrophically, and completely rebuild in under 15 minutes with virtually no data loss, with almost no human intervention at all.
If you care about your customers' data, I think that a reputable managed database is the right move until roughly the point that you can pay for a full time database administrator. At that point, sure, roll your own. But do regular disaster recovery tests, lest you discover that a recently departed DBA has been lying to you.
How do you handle anti-DDOS, zero-trust and WAF duties to a cloudflare-esque equivalency (e.g. a reverse-proxy style setup)?
While I definitely concur with your conclusions re VMs and GCP hosting overhead, did you benchmark a container based setup in GKE or similar?
For now we still use Cloudflare. Considering bunny.net after reading this OPs post.
I have been self hosting since couple of years, yes I got very very interested in self hosting my apps, away from the cloud overlords, but the major issue is the network.
You'll need business internet plans with redundancy and based on locations that might be prohibitively expensive. Some startups might even require their own AS numbers.
Also the connectivity to the data centers or cloud infra like WAF , CDNs etc will be definitely worse compared to cloud instances. Then comes firewalls, their configuration and their redundancy.
These things will matter if you're serious about your SaaS.You could definitely co-locate, but that's another cost, then comes the redundancy of everything, from servers, to disks to network (routers and switches etc).
I personally believe that modern hardware is pretty reliable and doesn't need redundancy in every layer, but most people won't agree with and when startups have enough money, this doesn't matter to them.
I think the only reason the common public is unable to start SaaS is handling and managing these problems. Redundancy costs a lot. And many startups don't want to deal with it even if it'll help them in long run. They just gather enough cash and throw at the overlords.
I do hope that the general infra should improve so that can properly host their own.
Nevertheless I'm still trying to start something in SaaS space and self host from my home...
> Just buy a few Mac Studios and run them in-house
I fail to see the point of this when the system you've to decided to run "yourself" is entirely owned and dependent on another American company.
I’m not anti American, that’s not the main point of my setup. The main point is I want to own it, not rent it. Apple doesn’t control my production setup after it’s in my hands. Macs from 10 years ago still work.
> Apple doesn’t control my production setup
I imagine these Mac Minis aren't logged in to an Apple ID. Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't force you to connect your hardware to their cloud.
You can setup a Mac without an Apple ID. To be honest iCloud is garbage. Almost all Mac App Store apps are available without the App Store.
And I don't see an advantage to have an Apple ID setup if you want a Mac Mini Server. All things you might need are downloable through brew.
I remember having a garbge Apple id just to use xcode. Back when I was desperate enough to work from a company that only issued macbooks.
It has the standard property of ownership: nothing gets turned off without YOUR permission, or at minimum legal proceedings in the area where you are located.
I'm not aware of any standard of property ownership with regard to Mac OS, Windows or any other proprietary software. The end user is granted a license to use the software. That license can be revoked at any time for any reason.
Where is your all-European made computer, then?
On that subject, I'd be curious to see any computer that's not mostly made in Asia.
HP makes them, so does Dell. They cost a bit extra, but essentially the whole Federal government runs on nothing else.
The difference between EU and US is that it's possible to make all components in the US, using US equipment, and so some companies do because it commands a pretty decent premium. It's not even that hard since most components (e.g. reference motherboard designs) are still designed and actually built in the US. China still really mostly does what you might politely call "commercializes US tech". And let's not discuss too deeply if they correctly pay licensing for all the components they make, because nobody enjoys that discussion.
And yep, as you might expect, only Intel chips, no Nvidia cards ... and that's not the end of the limitations. The previous version had no USB-C monitor support, never mind one USB-C cable to multiple monitors, but last year intel really pushed a bit harder. But even this year, I'd hope you're not going to be trying to use these machines for gaming.
The EU can't even make a modern motherboard's USB port chip.
Oh and yes, there are cracks in the US version too. The phones used, for example, are iPhones. Radio designed in South Korea ...
What does your networking redundancy setup look like?
Got lucky that we have a good personal relationship with our small local ISP and I trust they handle that for us. In the future I want to make it redundant by getting a second gigabit fibre connection.
Ah yes, MinIO, that open source S3 alternative that got archived last week. To me that's the biggest problem when self-hosting services. On day to day operations, some times it just breaks and the time to get it back varies from a couple of hours to a couple of days. And for the longer term you regularly have to upgrade things yourself which takes time and energy and is stressing for stateful deployment. And then you have it, at some point maintainers are just exhausted and the project is gone.
You can still selfhost MinIO you just have to pay. You also pay for software when renting a cloud service so this seems similar.
But, as far as I can see in their site, the price for MinIO AIStor isn't even public, you have to "Request Pricing". And that's never a good sign.
Are you actually using Exo for local clustered AI inference? I’ve considered it a few times and keep finding horror stories. Never seen someone report it’s actually working well for them.
No not yet. Planning to. But Qwen3 Coder Next 4bit runs decently well with LM Studio on my M3 Max with 96 GB RAM (50 tok/s at low context).
Great post, and interesting setup - harkens to days of old, when this was simply how things were done in the first place - but one question that I have, apropos:
>.. serve more than 10k - 100k requests/second which is good enough to serve a million customers.
What is your network connectivity like for this setup? Presumably you operate in a building capable of giving you fiber, with a fixed IP, or something like that?
Gigabit fiber with static IP for about 40 EUR per month. I plan to make it redundant with a second gigabit fiber connection from a different provider but haven’t done that yet.
> Presumably you operate in a building capable of giving you fiber, with a fixed IP, or something like that?
That is not really a rarity these days. I have symmetrical gigabit fibre with a fixed IP here in a Spanish farmhouse 45 minutes from the nearest population centre
In some countries and with some ISPs, you cannot get a fixed IP address at all, unless you register a business and prove to the ISP that you are running a business. I am guessing they will bill you accordingly then, and still have the same shoddy connectivity. I have seen shoddy connectivity with Pyür in Germany for a whole office building. Even as a business you are not immune to bad ISPs.
I guess Spain benefits from having a former national telecom. Movistar charges me a (outrageous by local standards) €30/month for a static IP on my residential fibre
Per the classic "Choose Boring Technology" [0]:
> Let’s say every company gets about three innovation tokens. You can spend these however you want, but the supply is fixed for a long while... If you choose to write your website in NodeJS, you just spent one of your innovation tokens. If you choose to use MongoDB, you just spent one of your innovation tokens. If you choose to use service discovery tech that’s existed for a year or less, you just spent one of your innovation tokens. If you choose to write your own database, oh god, you’re in trouble.
From my POV, the author spent all their innovation tokens on, fundamentally, a political commitment. I would not recommend this path to someone starting a company. It's hard enough already.
Also, many American companies that might have been useful to the author were founded by Europeans, e.g. GitLab. There's plenty of European talent for making widely adopted infrastructure. If those companies aren't in Europe, it's for a reason [1].
[0] https://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology
[1] https://worksinprogress.co/issue/why-europe-doesnt-have-a-te...
> Your users expect "Sign in with Google" and "Sign in with Apple." You can add email/password and passkeys, but removing social logins entirely is a conversion killer.
I know this is true, but I genuinely don't understand it. I want email/password and passkey, I will always go out of my way to avoid "Sign in with ...". I just don't get why people love this.
You really don't? It's just a ton easier for most users: it's (almost) like already having an account. Just click a couple times and you're in, no typing at all, no email confirmation or anything like that.
I also avoid it because I'm concerned about being over-reliant on google (what if they close my account?) and I know how to use a password manager, but I easily understand how 90-99% of the population doesn't care enough and goes the low-friction route.
Not to mention that B2B SaaS needs to provide the login methods that their customers need for their operations, and these typically rely on Google, Microsoft, Okta, etc.
I work on auth for a European startup and this is the case.
That users choose to link their account to Google when they can does not surprise me.
What surprises me is that if they cannot do it, they will just leave. The post says it is a "conversion killer".
It's not so much that they'll leave, as much as some percentage will abandon during the signup flow. I know somewhere out there are statistics on those who have to click a link in an email only to get distracted by other emails, to say nothing of the time to fill out forms, create a password, save to password manager, open your 2FA app for the more advanced users, etc.
Something I didn't see in the other comments is users who are using the startup's service for work, as an employee.
Why wouldn't you choose the simplicity of "sign in with Google" if your work email is on Google Workspace, using the entire Google suite of business tools for everything (gmail, chat, meet, docs, drive, auth, etc) any everything you do at work is known to Google anyway?
Making an email/password account with your work Gmail is just extra steps, one more password to store, and perhaps the inconvenience of one more 2FA thing. Google gets the same information either way.
Similarly why wouldn't you choose the "sign in Microsoft" if your work is all in on the Microsoft suite of business tools (teams, office, onedrive, auth, etc.) and everything you do at work is known to Microsoft anyway?
> I just don't get why people love this.
For a single personal user it's only a small bit of friction but if you're in charge of 30 people SSO is a godsend for boring compliance work and managing groups of people. You want to change a domain in the company not a big deal. Don't have to rotate passwords every quarter, need to restrict an employee from a service etc. You aren't imagining other challenges other than your own here.
I assume your circle is mostly tech people? Outside that bubble, it's pretty obvious. People just want easy, don't understand security in many cases, it's the simplest path.
Even absent the above. Imagine a signup flow. I can either click <Sign Up With Google> or I can go through a manual flow with input fields. The former is much faster than the latter. It surprises you people choose the path of least resistance?
It does not surprise me that people choose the path of least resistance. I find it sad that they happily connect everything to Google/Apple.
What surprises me is that it is a "conversion killer". So if you ask people to create an account, it's sooooo very hard for them that they will just leave. And spend the next 30 minutes scrolling TikTok, I guess?
How many services do you have subscribed to? from simple PHPBB boards to very much official product and online shops? How do you manage all those username/password? The single point of failure of relying on Google/Apple is real, but so is the manual and laborious process to auth via email/password and the managment that goes with it.
It definitely surprised me just how lazy humans are on average. The amount of effort people are willing to exert on sign ups, etc... The drop off with each additional field blew my mind.
People usually have either one or the other account already, because it came with their smartphone. It is friction less from their point of view.
Sure, but what the post says is not that they will go for the easier path. It says that if they don't get to link their account go Google/Apple, they will completely give up (it is a "conversion killer").
Well.. it's the flip side of those social logins being known and proven conversion boosters. If you actively decide against them, you are losing a low effort tool to boost your CR.
HN is going to skew towards people with password managers & concerns about vendors locking you out. I think most people just want low friction - be that 'Sign in with', or passwordless-based authentication like 404media (you want to sign in? You've been emailed a code)
> passwordless-based authentication like 404media (you want to sign in? You've been emailed a code)
How is this low friction to manually copy/paste a code from email as opposed to allow a password manager to log me in automatically?! This kind of authentication is a stupid current trend I hate the most TBH.
I'm not sure non-technical people have a good understanding of or experience with password less email login either. While doing tech support I've seen people get very confused at the need to open another app to login in or the fact that they're now logged in in the webview of their email app and not logged in in the app or browser they had been using (especially if the first thing that web view does is pop up a giant "try the app" modal)
I can't stand the 'use the app' nag modals!
Thanks for your insight. Outside of being a consumer, and as a security engineer one who appreciates things like passwordless, my experience comes from my employers passwordless rollout. The sentiment is broadly positive, but we would veer to a technical user base, and sentiment misses the nuance you brought up.
My email goes to the same company I can login with so might as well tap the button.
But if there is no Google/Apple button, will you just leave? Like not even create an account? That's what "conversion killer" means.
I may start to create an account, but after about 30 seconds of effort, I'll start asking myself if it's really a service I care about. Send me an email? If it's not there by the time I click my email tab, odds are pretty good I won't wait around unless it's a truly compelling offering. Want me to fill out a form? If it's anything more than just an email and a password field my password manager can complete for, again, I'll question whether I want you to have that info about me.
So no, I may not leave, but each tiny bit of friction increases the possibility of abandonment. From the perspective of conversion, abandonment is the same as "just leaving".
I won't but a decent % of people do ye.
In fact a decent % of people stops shopping on your site if there's a few ms lag.
At every step a few percent of revenue is lost your competitor takes in.
> I just don't get why people love this.
I wonder if there will ever come a day where the average HN user actually understands how normal people use technology.
Just observe anyone in your social circle that does not "care" about technology and you'll see their reaction to a login prompt when trying, not rarely under time pressure, to access a service they haven't used for a while.
They will sigh, maybe roll their eyes. And who can blame them? The same goes for registering to a new service. Normal people don't use password managers, they don't have Bitwarden with auto-fill, nor do they ever "generate" passwords.
"Sign in with..." offers them a way out of a frustrating experience, it's the device telling them "Hey, would you just like to use this thing you're already logged into instead?" -- yes, obviously they would like that.
> I wonder if there will ever come a day where the average HN user actually understands how normal people use technology.
Well, I wouldn't say I don't understand it. If someone uses their smartphone as a hammer, regularly break it and regularly buy a new smartphone, I understand what they are doing. I just don't understand why they are doing it, I guess?
In this case, the post says that it's a conversion killer. So people are so damn lazy that if they can't click on "share the information with Google", they will just leave.
Both available choices "share the information with Google" for most people. The majority of email account creations use a Gmail or Google Workspace address, so Google gets the information either way, and in Europe most use Android so can't sign in with Apple.
In my experience its been the users who principally only have a mobile phone - i.e. no desktop - and therefore want the benefit of the phone-managed account system tied to .. biometrics, etc...
Heard of haveibeenpwned? You'll end up there, eventually.
If you end up, for some reason, being one of those unlucky individuals whose Google account gets banned and all your other accounts are behind Google login, then you truly have been owned.
You mean when using "sign in with" and then using a shitty password for your social media account?
If you use e-mail and password with a good password manager, that runs locally on your device and generate good random passwords, it is unlikely you will end up on haveibeenpwned, and even if one website does shit, the blast radius is only one account on one website.
You'll still have your e-mail address exposed, which you may not want if it is to some random porn site. Moreover, password managers do not work if you use multiple devices for log in, which most people actually do.
I use my password manager across multiple devices daily.
Apparently it has not been working without me noticing it?
I assume they're thinking about the 'offline' style where one would shuffle a database file and probably resolve conflicts. There's an app/extensions nowadays, man!
I don't even bother with a VPN, just occasionally push a 'sync' button on the roaming devices [when they return to LAN]. DB transactions [new credentials] averages ~0 per month... but there's plenty of capacity. Works extremely well.
Risk Bob's Salad Shack leaking an inconsequential, unique, credential or bind everything to the whims and identity of a single organization; hmm.
Sign-on with the external identity provider doesn't help if data related to your account like the billing information, your government ID info etc. are released in the breach, that's the sore point.
Password manager.
Before inevitable "what if your password manager is hacked...," what if your google account is hacked / banned?
You don't even need a password manager, browsers autogenerate secure passwords for you, and they sync between computers/mobile devices.
(I'm saying this from the perspective of "regular people don't want to be inconvenienced like that, obviously you should use an external password manager for security)
People will know that my password was y!2TvM8h3dpvw4 for one particular website at some point. What do I lose here? Google/Apple incurs much greater risk that is entirely out of your control.
Currently migrating from Digital Ocean to Scaleway as well, found this article informative.
To assist others:
Good, honest write up! As users we need to make more efforts to move out of the American ecosystems. Cloudflare is just so convenient to take only one example.
OT, about the finished product (hank.parts): the French translation and tone is a little rude. For one, it uses "tu" instead of "vous", which does have become customary on Social networks but is still a little bit agressive on a regular website. And "bagnole" or "balance une photo" is more than casual.
Maybe the target are young people but I wouldn't bet on it. Average car ownership in Europe is 53, and 55 in France. Share of new vehicle registrations by adults aged 18-34 is below 10% in Europe.
My two cents.
Interesting. I actually had a human translator do the french translation because I didn't trust deepl/LLMs on certain languages. He was Belgian though. Thanks for the feedback, I will certainly consider it - I don't speak french myself.
I agree with them, the French translation is way too casual/aggressive compared to the English text.
I wouldn't trust this website.
It comes across as influencer speech targeted to edgy young people with a touch of "how do you do, fellow kids?".
Pretty sure a modern LLM would yield a better one.
Speaking of translations, the Italian translation seems fine but it uses English Capitalization of Titles, but that doesn't work in Italian.
It should be "Pronto a trovare il tuo ricambio?", not "Pronto a Trovare il Tuo Ricambio?".
Super timely - thank you! Im in the process of moving the entire stack of my SaaS* fully in EU as well. Hetzner bare-metal, Talos k8s, OVH Object Storage for backups, self-hosted (for now) image repo. For now im still on Cloudflare for CDN, but bunny looks interesting. Using GitOps (FluxCD) as deployment strategy enables no dependencies on e.g. GitHub Actions.
For one thing running on bare-metal @ Hetzner is insane value for money versus GCP GKE. Im a third of the running costs and get ~50x resources.
The only aspect im struggling with is full-disk encryption. Although customer data is still encrypred with envelope encryption in the database, i want to migrate to fully encrypted disks (LUKS + TPM) sooner rather than later. If anyone has any resources and/or experience with this, please let know :)
* Gatana AI MCP gateway: https://www.gatana.ai/
Unless I'm mistaken you can install hetzner from ISO allowing you to use LUKS. You could use teng/clevis to allow it to automatically unlock (or refuse to, given certain conditions)
I’ve found Scaleway really good, I’m surprised it doesn’t come up more often here.
If it matters, I didn’t go to them because they were specifically an EU org either - when Packet became Equinix Metal and then that got shut down, SCW were the most equivalent in terms of cost / hardware specifications and I often used them in parallel when Packet was still around so as to not have all my eggs in one basket.
+1 for Scaleway, I've been migrating some of my customers on it and I love it's simplicity and reliability. Costs are also fine.
I really like Scaleway too ! I went with them because Linode got bought and I thought, since I was moving my things anyway, let's go to a French provider. And I got a bad experience with OVH, so Scaleway it was.
But really, I wonder why it's not used more ? Price are maybe a bit high for some things ?
Price would be a bit more bearable if their reserved instance discounts were more generous
I asked myself the same thing, trustpilot is pretty rough on them and a lot of people tell you online to stay away from them. I also had very good support experience so far. Their shared TEM IP had some deliverability issues at times, but they seem to have cracked down on this recently. I am on dedicated IP now, so I can't really judge if there have been improvements.
+1 for bad experience with OVH, their control panel is a mess (only the Italian provider Aruba is probably worse) and their backend is riddled with bugs. If something is broken in the control panel, the support team candidly invites you to do it via their APIs instead.
Another bad experience with OVH here. In fact not bad but catastrophic. They enabled 2FA without my consent and then demanded a signed letter on paper by post to let me back into my account. Their online customer service was beyond useless and the nightmare took weeks to resolve. This after I had been a loyal customer for years. Just when I was preparing to punish them by moving, my VPS went up in smoke at that fire in their Strasbourg datacenter. "Oops, our bad", went the email. Beyond parody. It's almost a surprise to me that this company is still in business.
With Hetzner now for several years without incident.
* Scaleway is totally painful/scary on data encryption at rest and in transit, does not feel like your infra/data is isolated from other customers
* OVHCloud is good if you deploy your production in HA fashion with higher tiers or do multi-region yourself using a vRack, real issue that they made the news with burning DCs, the fact that the customer base has been originally a gazillion cheap web servers does not help big companies going in, they are going somewhere on the SaaS
On most European cloud providers I feel like IAM is crap: workload identity is almost non-existent, API keys management is usually hellish. Same goes for encryption/isolation. I want to hear more technical feedback on most of them, devil is in the details !
Scaleway is so close to being a great product but they need to hire a really visionary Product leader
I found scaleway's IAM system pretty solid so far. Right balance between "gives you nightmares" (GCP) and "one key to rule them all" (Hetzner.. Bunny.. and so many others)
Can you expand on the Scaleway comment? Would be interested in the details.
Also aren't their data centres all in the Paris area? Do they have any geo-redundancy?
paris, amsterdam, warsaw and I think they are launching or have launched recently in other places
What do American colleagues think when they read about this trend among Europeans to abandon their platforms?
Codeberg would make a better choice if we speak about EU source code forges. And Forgejo instead of Gitea, which is nowadays controversial project.
What makes Gitea controversial nowadays, I'm out of the loop.
"Forgejo was initially created in December 2022 as a fork of Gitea. The fork occurred after a for-profit limited corporation ran by the lead maintainer of the project, Lunny Xiao, silently transferred Gitea's trademarks and operations to the company and began to establish an open-core model."[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgejo
Also see: https://gitea-open-letter.coding.social/
EDIT: HN discussion on the latter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33372471
From a quick web-search: Apparently it was an open-source community project, but the governing organization created a for-profit entity and transferred most of the assets to that entity (brand, website, etc.). Gitea apparently still uses MIT licenses, but the community felt it was a betrayal of the open-source ethos. forgejo is a community fork of Gitea when the issues mentioned were not suitably resolved.
I was roughly familiar with Github Action/Gitea Action compatibility and had a self hosted Gitea already... I found codeberg interesting though!
Isn't Codeberg only for Open Source ?
Github or other commercial alternatives aren’t for closed source either anymore.
Putting closed source code on github is basically asking them to launder it through LLMs
But selfhosted Gitea, which OP chose, IS good for closed source. And codeberg is not.
Codeberg is immense buuut it's only intended for open source projects really, so might not be a good fit for all.
Happy to see Bugsink mentioned here as a solution for Error Tracking _and_ to not see it show up as one of the "harder parts" :-)
Just as a FYI: if self-hosting ever turns out to be too much work, it's also available Hosted.
> Google Ads and Apple's Developer Program. If you want to acquire users and distribute a mobile app, you're paying the toll to Mountain View and Cupertino.
If you said Play Store, then sure, though at least distribution on there is free. But you said Google Ads, which you really do not need to acquire users. Returns on Google Ads were already low, and have only continued getting worse and worse. I'm sure someone here claims to be a magician at it and believes they can get a fantastic RoI out of it, and I'm sure some can. But the huge majority doesn't. It's very much like day trading stocks.
There's a huge number of other, better avenues for paid marketing if you want to do it.
Different industries have different customers with different needs and funnels.
None of my businesses use a "sign in with..." option and I highly doubt it would increase conversions, however the article and many commenters here are adament (based on their experience) that it is integral.
I'm not sure it's day trading per se, I think it's just a lot more relevant to some industries/products than others.
OP is talking about apps distributed through App/Play Store though. After a certain size in B2B services, sure, you can do Google Ads. But even for B2B it makes no sense to start out with it unless you're a hot startup raising big rounds. The RoI isn't there in 2026, the juice has been squeezed.
Google Ads does "kind of" work in the niche I am in, usually with low competition key words.... but I did stop throwing money at it. I am never going to return the investment per conversion... but if you want a search engine to throw your money at.. it is still pretty much without alternative to me.
If you want to throw your money into a pit, there's a lot of alternative pits available out there. Happy to share my bank account, then at least one of us gets use out of it.
> You can add email/password and passkeys, but removing social logins entirely is a conversion killer. Every one of those auth flows hits American servers. The silver lining: Hanko, a German identity provider, handles the auth layer itself, so at least your user management and session handling stay in Europe, even if the OAuth flow touches Google or Apple.
You can at least put "Sign in with Spotify" first before Apple/Google - they have social login. I've even seen apps that have nothing to do with music offer it as an option.
Interesting! I will think about the Spotify thing. I will pass on your bank account for now, thank you.
There must be some alternative European social logins, I know Seznam (of mapy.cz/mapy.com fame) has one: https://vyvojari.seznam.cz/oauth/doc?lang=en
Problem is that there's no point in adding it unless a sizeable number of people using it, and Spotify is the only European one I can think of where that's the case. Seznam clearly isn't unless potentially a cz-only service - no idea how popular it is there.
Delivery Hero is really big and EU but too fragmented. Maybe Wise should add social login, I think Paypal has it.
Which platforms/avenues do you recommend?
As I said, anything that's not search ads. Youtubers, influencers of any size, UCG, podcasts, newsletters, you name it. LinkedIn content. There's thousands of options. Or if you do want to throw money at US/Chinese big tech, then TikTok, or Apple, or Reddit ads. Industry fairs. It entirely depends on where your niche is.
Of course if you're the next YC B2B SaaS raising big series then sure go burn your VC cash on Google Ads, but that's clearly not what OP is doing, or really most of us.
AWS does have a European sovereign cloud now: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/opening-the-aws-european-so...
Now how bulletproof it is in practice will be tested in years to come, I'm sure. But it seems to be using the same model as AWS in China where a local company licenses and operates the software from AWS.
The Chinese version of AWS isn't the full offering, offering less than 1/3 of the services. ESC appears to be more complete, but it's not a third party local company, but rather, a walled-off subsidy of AWS in Germany.
Nice try by them but the Amazon is still a river and "AWS European Sovereign Cloud" is an oxymoron.
Using self-hosted Mox for transactional emails.
Here in Norway (and probably Sweden, too) BankID is a widely used authentication system, and most domestic services will use that as a auth / login. Only "drawback" is that it requires 2FA, which is quite trivial today. But there are still tons of users that want their "login with FB / Google / etc.".
And a last but: If using such auth systems, one would have to account for all the different systems unique to countries.
Maybe some larger EU-specific ID / auth system would make sense?
Sounds like the EU Digital Identity Wallet project: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/sites/spaces/EU...
BankID is very convenient but the lock in is ridiculous. Owned by a private company and pretty much every service that you use depends on it. You're forced to own a new Google-approved Android or iPhone to use it and to function in society.
We definitely need a vendor independent ID system.
Many European countries have decent authentication, banking and payment system alternatives or even innovative solutions. I think, like usually, it's just a problem to break out of national or regional circles into something pan-European.
A lot of people seem to agree that relying on a handful of too powerful American companies, especially in the ad and social media space, is a terrible idea and running foul of privacy requirements. Remains to be seen if some larger alternatives manage to pop up though. The European landscape is pretty fragmented.
I tried buying a domain on OVH and the experience was shitty was forwarded between different versions of the page GB etc and could not finish the checkout
Its a really good sign that this worked out at all. And the takeaways are enlightening
- EU domain registrars might have some bullshit under the hood making the same TLDs more expensive. Might need to investigate - eu needs its own mobile app ecosystem, easy auth, and genAI offerings - - but interested to see why mistral wasnt feasible - other things need to be scaled up to have the community and maturity to function well. This come with time and adoption
Id love if this took off. If more and more people did this
Mistral seems great and offers great functionality and maybe fair pricing. However, I have used their LLM API (Le Chat?) in a project and unfortunately the API times out sooooo often. I had to add retry logic and have timeouts of 5 minutes and such, and sometimes there is just never a response from the API. If they could make that more stable ...
(I am using their official Python client library.)
Have you tried Mistral? Admittedly I've only used it twice but I was disappointed. It feels like comparing openoffice to word 20 years ago - does the job but at an obvious compromise
We use bunny.net dns for Geo DNS with their dns based load balancing for my websocket infra. They have awesome community and support is top-notch. Getting a response from Cloudflare community is like taking a lottery if you are free plan.
Nice reading but what you built is impossible to use without registration. I'm not going to register if can't find what I'm looking for.
Cool post, thanks. Though I would want to know how much cheaper Hetzner actually is compared to AWS?
We looked at StackIT at my company and they were twice as expensive... Which was a bit surprising to me.
I currently rent a full, dedicated AMD Ryzen 5 64GB ram server for €35 a month. Its amazing how much you can actually run on a dedicated machine
Domain TLD is the one administratively completely entangled into USA system while playing a major role on the internet working as it does. ICANN should definitely be an international entity, like UNESCO.
All other points are "mere" technical gaps.
I am still baffled.. compare a domain like .party or .parts between porkbun or your major US based providers and a EU based registrar of your choosing.... It's not pretty, at least it wasn't to me.
Porkbun has .party for $21.09 (bar the first year promotion, not sure about VAT) and INWX (DE, VAT included) has it 32.80€ . It is definitely more but not as scary as you made it sound.
Wow, gotta check out INWX. I am paying in the 50s now..so double the cost..No VAT at porkbun!
I'm on INWX but trying to get out, as pricing is quite expensive for regular TLDs. A .com domain goes for about €18 with taxes and all that stuff.
And the situation for autorenewal is terrible. At least when using their Spanish site (inwx.es) they cannot do autorenewal billed directly to your credit card or Paypal account, you have to previously add credit to your account "balance" and leave it hanging there until your next renewal.
Somebody mentioned openprovider.com and I'm taking a look because it looks interesting.
If you dig one step beyond hetzner you should start to see that the whole thing is unavoidably global. There is no truly dominant monopoly holder anywhere. Who makes the photolithography machines? What about those weird Japanese companies that make chemicals and substrates that no one else can?
Once the chips are there in a EU datacenter, no geopolitical change can bring them away. And that already makes some difference.
Enjoyable article, thanks. I'd like to see a section on "layer 8" (or 9? whatever we are calling it). The regulatory layer. There seem to be so many uncertainties in Europe (and to a slightly lesser extent, the UK) now. I think if starting another company I'd have to give it some serious consideration.
I am trying to be on top of the legal stuff. I did start EU first with GDPR compliance and expanding to the UK was kind of low effort. Comparatively little changes are required. I might expand on that in a future article.. all that legal stuff was quite a bit of effort but I got lucky with my lawyer choice and felt very supported from them at reasonable cost.
My European stack: - OVH for object storage, domain names and simple Wordpress websites - Scalingo/3DS Outscale for PaaS (looking for alternatives here!) - Mailjet used to be EU but they've been acquired by Mailgun - don't know if that's an issue. Brevo is okay as an email service provider but they could be way better.
Did you use a European LLM to write this article? Or was it an American one in the end? :)
EDIT: Looks like it's an American one in the end, oh well. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47085756
Slop text generation is equally good with chinese and european LLMs don't worry about that part
I still have GLM/Qwen or Deepseek sometimes randomly adding Chinese characters to things... :)
It's also difficult to find providers for competetive large-scale non-transactional emails, i.e. marketing and newsletter mails.
None comes close to AWS, closest comes are messageflow (PL), elasticemail (PL), brevo (FR). Other players like Scaleway TEM (FR) and Lettermint (NL) don't offer non-transactional.
I am at Lettermint for a month now, coming from Postmark.app (US) and I only can tell positives things about it, works very well and is reasonably priced.
AWS SES does not work for me at all, the sending success rate is really bad.
Yes, exactly! Marketing emails are a whole other story. I was planning on mailjet - thoughts?
Have been using it for transactional mails, that was okay. Have not tried it for non-transactional, esp. not in 20+ mio/months.
Authentik would fit very nicely there and eliminate that one large bit that the author says he can't avoid putting on US infra. I am only saying this because he's already self hosting a bunch of things.
Hanko can be self hosted, if needed - it is one of the few products I chose actively to NOT self host. I am aware of Authentik and do like it.
Thanks for the writeup.
Does anybody know whether there are any European alternatives for Github that allow you to host private/commercial repositories without using self-hosting?
My EU stack, works well and is cheap!
Hosting and storage: Hetzner and Netcup
Domain: ClouDNS with Failover
Transactional email: Lettermint
CDN: Bunny
My advice and experience is don't use Netcup. They are abysmal at customer service. I once registered a domain with them, and hadn't even paid, but then couldn't get my account deleted at all. Even multiple e-mails did not help and they insisted on keeping my data until half a year later or so. They absolutely behaved like complete holes, and I will never trust them again with anything. I don't know what they do with user data. Maybe they systems are just so terrible, that it is a huge effort for them to go and comply with GDPR deletion request and then they just don't do it.
Also their web interface doesn't allow you to delete your domain, even if you have not paid yet. So anyone could come and make some account and register a domain, but then not pay and they wouldn't remove it from their systems. The feel of their website is very antiquated and due to not being able to delete your domains, feels buggy.
I am using Netcup over the course of 20 years now and tbh never had any problems. Their customer service is very friendly and they responded quickly to me every time. Sorry to hear your story, but I think this is an exception? I had domains there too, but moved away because of functionality. But my main hoster is Hetzner for a decade now. But because of vendor lock out, I am glad to have Netcup too, especially if you consider the price!
Seems this page is not eu compliant anyway since there is no info who owns it
The finished product has an imprint (with commercial name, according to Spanish law). The blog post isn't commercial.
The article does not mention payments. I would be especially interested in a European Stripe alternative - this is what I find really difficult to replace.
I am simply not at that phase yet... I considered revolut pay (UK) or adyen (NL)?
Inspiring! I'll likely pursue the same thing.
For domains I am very happy with ClouDNS. Anycast DNS provider with failover functionality. It's from Bulgaria.
Surprisingly sober take. I enjoyed the honesty. Thanks!
Why is there no European alternative to Apple app store? It's rather strange to me.
I was kind of interested in the content, but I am so overloaded with AI slop by now, that reading this generated text gives me nausea.
I was looking to see why they landed on this stack, but there are no alternatives or evaluation criteria listed - given the generated article, I wonder how much of the infra was selected by an LLM.
Claude helped write the article. It is 2026. I proof read it though and yes, giving an LLM a list of specific criteria of what you are looking for in a product is actually a pretty good experience.
If it works for you, it works. I just see the same phrases used repeatedly so frequently nowdays - including my own LLM conversations.
Regarding the use of LLM for picking infra. The issue I usually have with such task is that they frequently omit things - either from the list of options or the features compared. And depending on my familiarity with the topic, I might never notice, which might steer my decision making into a different direction. Basically a certain bias. Sometimes prompting it to repeat reveals more, but ultimately I end up hitting the search and doing my own research, then I might use the LLM again with now more knolwedge and data. Did you run into this too? What was your process?
I do understand what you mean with bias.. some models where quite stubbornly ignoring things like "I want made in EU - not GDRP compliant - not one office or data center in the EU". I remember this being especially painful for TEM and market email providers. Usually they suck at finding the right pricing data at first try.. so I ended up throwing screenshots of pricing pages. Now that I am writing this up, in some instances manually comparing them would have been faster :D ... The bias might come from the huge amount of US dominance in training data and might not even be intentional. In some niches you don't have many options, that's what I tried leaning on in the article.
> Your users expect "Sign in with Google" and "Sign in with Apple."
And then they cry when they lose access to everything because their Google/Apple account got blocked for some obscure violation of ToS.
All of those considerations are driven by politics, not technical matters. What if in Germany next election will be won by AfD, in France by Lepenists (Jordan Bardella is going for the win in 2027 election). And next US election will be won by Democrats. What's then? Moving back to the USA?
Data sovereignty, avoiding monopolistic dark patterns by big American corporations and choosing local business partners that you can keep accountable is not political, it’s logical choice.
I just signed up up Hetzner
Their menu has:
- Console
- konsoleH
- Robot
- DNS
When I click into Console I get an additional option called "Website"
I have no idea what Robot and konsoleH are.
Is it a prerequisite if you make a cloud platform to make your offering as confusing as possible?
Hetzner is juggling quite a bit of legacy systems (konesoleH, Robot) around at the same time.. bare metal (root) is still on Robot, a system from the early 2000s I believe.. konsoleH is for classic website hosting and console is what oyu need for cloud. They are progressively moving over stuff to console now, DNS and Storage Boxes have recently moved.
For anyone looking for non-US transactional email, I found https://mailpace.com via HN a while back and can recommend. Can't remember who the HN user behind it is, but they've done a great job.
There is an ongoing lobbying push for "Made in EU" [0] which is unrelated to OPs article. The winds sure are blowing towards European sovereignty. Thanks, Trump!
[0]: https://www.euronews.com/business/2026/02/19/made-in-europe-...
Ehm sorry but no. Sovereignty means you own the stack not that you just choose other suppliers. Build on EU infra means owning a machine room with some servers, having fiber optic good enough for your traffic and that's is.
What the author describe is just a supplier switch still owning next to nothing.
Perhaps the term is overloaded, and a better one would suffice, but the bigger point is to ensure that none of their infrastructure is under the purview of any US entity, public or private.
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Did you try to register VAT-free by any chance? My first guess would be that you could have set the tax region wrong.
What exactly is your goal in doing this? What has it brought you?
US admin is threatening the EU on multiple fronts if you haven't reading the news. Invasions of sovereign territory, dismantling the EU etc.. This is unprecedented and without merit and a lot of EU citizens and governments have reached their patience threshold and are choosing to buy elsewhere.
The US has simply casually mentioned they could turn off all access to US digital services and products that we currently pay good money for. The concern is that they might!
Can't speak for the author, but freedom from US spying ideally. Additionally, not providing any revenue to a US-company that in turn pays taxes to a government that they don't support the actions of.
It was a mix of stubbornness and curiosity how far you could push this experiment.
Running microservices on Hetzner is a risky move.
Their direct internet connections rarely go down, but links between servers in their internal network suffer from intermittent failures. if you make your service reliable enough to be able to run on a single node, you could have built a monolith in the first place.
If you build microservices you should always assume that links go down! So what is the deal here? Think about it as a feature to make your application more error prone. :-)
I think this is short-sighted - there are many applications where a single node is all one needs, and this is a huge part of Hetzners user base, presumably.
A bit of anecdote from me, as a decades-long Hetzner user: I have personally felt no real impact whatsoever with their internal network suffering from intermittent failures. The downtime incurred by Hetzner admin I've experienced is measured in minutes, in my case over a 10 year period as a customer...
In conclusion from the `What you realistically can't avoid` section is that running entirely on non american services will never happen.
Unless some entity pours hundreds of billions (trillions?) of euros into solving this over multiple decades there will be no way to replace google ads and sign in with google/apple. The AI part seems to be the easiest thing to solve in the list, that says something.
In the history of geopolitics, even with what little I've learned of it, "will never happen" can be as soon as two years.
Billions of euros over multiple decades? Why?
Seems to me like it's mainly regulation. The thing that makes people in China, or Russia, for example, not use Google - isn't that Yandex / Baidu got tons of investments. It is that people can't easily access Google. If the EU decides to pull the switch (or if the US decides to do so), we have enough competence people here to build a search engine.
That's where democratic governments at a disadvantage. Europe is also more integrated into US market. For example, killing access to Google ads ecosystem will make 100s of thousands or even millions of people unemployed. Apple and Google have multiple offices in Europe. A divorce with US will again make a huge amount of people lose their very high paying jobs. Unlike China and Russia those people can vote.
Moreover, in democracies companies from other countries usually get more say and have more lobbying power. Open market system gives more decision powers to global players. Whereas in China or Russia, if you are not serving the goals of the dictatorial rule, you get ousted permanently without a fear of elections.
I think those things are very hard to predict. Yes, many Europeans will stop working for American companies and lose their very high paying jobs. On the other hand, the EU as a whole will stop sending billions of euros to the American economy, and at least some of this money will be invested in creating local alternatives; Those who worked for American companies will probably find their place in these alternatives.
Everything you wrote about the open market system is true, except it seems like that system have died over the past year. Europeans understand now that the US isn't a friend.
Google was freely available in Russia up until 2022 and Yandex still had a larger market share. It really was a solid competitor to Google, much better than anything the EU ever had.
While it's true Europe might not be producing the next Apple or Google, there are lots of alternatives, like national academic login systems, logging into third parties with bank credentials or government IDs... Solutions that depend less on one commercial company capturing the market, that are in place on a national level and work well. It's a different landscape. Factors like current day political turmoil make people much less trusting of "American" solutions. It remains to be seen if this goes beyond sentiment into some actual pan-European solutions that (claim to) safeguard privacy and data.
What about non EU users? Americans don't second guess themselves when they slap google/apple/meta sign in only. They know everyone in the world will never pause when they see their logo on the buttons. To reach this scale of worldwide adoption for a European service requires a massive amount of investment.
What's even the entry point? Google and Apple make the devices that everyone uses. Even if you build a service like you suggested, how do you ensure that everyone is using it?
> They know everyone in the world will never pause when they see their logo on the buttons.
As in, that they won't run away when they see them or that they will all happily use them? If you mean the latter, then it's just false. Also, why do you assume that such product would need to be used worldwide all of a sudden? Having something for the local market would be sufficient to call it a success in this instance. There's an ICC judge who could tell you a thing or two about having a whole digital life on the hook of services from one country, so reducing this dependency is a clear benefit.
> Also, why do you assume that such product would need to be used worldwide all of a sudden
Because I'm talking about not running on any American services. Which Americans can do and do all the time. I don't see how we can reach a point where we can one day not include google/apple sign in and not lose a massive number of potential users. Sure it's possible that one day we'll see a "Sign in with EU login" but below it they're always be sign in with google/apple, for a very long time.
That post mostly concerned infrastructure, you won't likely run the same managed DB with 2 different providers, for example, but you can well offer sign-in with EU/non-EU options, and as long as the first one is viable, I'd say that would already be a win in terms of OP's goals.
Yeah, they sell you that with the devices. You would need to crack iOS/Android dominance first before you could realistically consider NOT assuming someone has at least one or the other account.
Agreed mate, it took absolute trillions of Euros for "Sign in with VK" to become a common option in Russia. No clue how they did it while also waging wars.
"Sign in with LINE" in Japan? Quintillions of Yen were spent.
Sign in with LINE and not a single American logo on the log in page?
Also what about AI? Can't solve that with a sub billion euros of investment.
It's possible that will get ""solved"" overnight when some critical service gets cut off or banned in one direction or the other for political reasons.
This is a weird take. It is completely arbitrary.
I could say that you cannot run entirely on US technology, because electronics comes from China. Does that mean that we should just strive to move everything to China, so that we only depend on them?
Makes no sense to me.
A lot of people are over romanticizing on Hetzner. The hard truth is that Hetzner is a great provider for bare metal machines and extremely competitive pricing, but it's extremely demanding to run production workloads there without a dedicated infra guy. Claude won't wake up in the middle of the night solving the things helped you provision in an acceptable timeframe. If you are serious about your product SLOs, hyperscales shine, and you can only accept the "cloud tax".
are you aware of https://github.com/vitobotta/hetzner-k3s ? I am using it and I can wholeheartedly recommend.
You know, Hetzner is around since 1997, the term cloud didn't even exists then. Or AWS... The only hard truth is something when I see my wife.
Hetzner is a very particular product. They openly cop to being "overly cautious" with even letting people open accounts because they're playing with razor thin margins: I wouldn't engage with an organization like that for serious production workloads.
At least, where "serious" is defined as making enough money that paying AWS $200 a month for $20 a month worth of compute is worth it in exchange for an actual SLA*, paid support, and knowing that even if you drop of the face of the Earth, the account will probably run unfunded months before your users even notice.
I've been bitten by using "quirky" tier-3 providers for savings on projects that really should have just ate the cost of a bigger provider.
(* Yes an SLA is not a magic uptime guarantee, but it creates an expectation which is a lot better than nothing.)