Mobile carriers can get your GPS location
an.dywa.ng878 points by cbeuw 3 days ago
878 points by cbeuw 3 days ago
My friend was going through a pretty massive depression after his mom passed. He'd been with my wife and I at our house for a number of hours talking through it, and apparently not texting his sisters back. They called in a welfare check.
We live in a reasonably dense suburb. Police showed up at our front door and asked to speak with him. They just wanted to make sure he was doing OK. He asked them "how did you find me?" and their response was just "we pinged your phone".
Watching my security camera, they did not stop at any of my neighbors houses first. It was very direct to my front door. This leads me to believe whatever sort of coordinates they had were pretty spot on. His car was parked well down the block and not in front of our house so that was no give away.
This was five years ago and always struck me as a "Huh"
Oh! So IIRC it used to be that the modem could only get a rough estimate of your location and typically Apple/Google's location infra(which combined wifi/blue and lately satellite position based shadow mapping) to determine a precise location. And law enforcement got precise info from _that_ infra(E911 requirements for every device).
Clearly they don't need that now because 5g cell towers have gotten precise enough? Also, if that's true then 5g being that precise might still not apply to urban dense areas, where more postprocessing is required to get better location accuracy...
5G isn’t inherently any more precise, but because of the higher frequency used in 5G, the radio signals are blocked by obstructions much more easily, so there must be many more 5G radios per unit area to provide coverage. And one feature of having many more base stations around is that triangulation of specific phone is much more accurate and precise because of how close the 5G base stations are to all 5G phones.
5G infrastructure isn’t limited to tall easily visible radio towers like 4G and before; 5G transmitters are small and relatively inexpensive, making them very common. My employer has a private 5G infrastructure, and we are not related to telecommunications in any way.
> but because of the higher frequency used in 5G
For the most part they use the same or lower frequencies. N71 (600mhz) is lower than any of the 2G/3G bands and requires less cell density than 3G (UMTS/WCDMA) did.
> 5G infrastructure isn’t limited to tall easily visible radio towers like 4G and before;
Nor were earlier technologies. DAS systems get used in large buildings/cities and were done with 4G as well. Small cells and femtocells have been a thing since at least 3G era.
> 5G transmitters are small and relatively inexpensive, making them very common.
Transmitter cost wasn't the primary limitation before, the options for unlicensed/lightly-licensed spectrum were low before and the standards weren't really designed to use them as primary carrier until NR. Also you had to run way more components to run earlier technologies, the stack is just smaller for a NR deploy.
This is not true, 5G has multiple positioning improvements that are not related to higher frequencies. 5G has something called LMF (Location Management Function) that handles positioning of user clients through multiple means, like round trip time, angle of arrival, and dedicated 5G positioning reference signals.
You can read more about 5G positioning here:
https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/12/5g-positioning--wha...
https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2024/11/5g-advanced-positio...
https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.03361
https://research.chalmers.se/publication/542739/file/542739_...
i swore 5G used much higher frequencies (and is therefore blocked by so many more things that don't affect 4G and below.) I'm glad I'm wrong, thank you.
In 2009 I worked with a triangulation system in a dense populated area. The precision of location was comparable in average to GPS (meaning sometimes better) when indoors, it was orders of magnitude better as GPS. That was 3G, some yeras ago… I assume today is much better, as the density of cells increased
I'd be very interested in more info, but am going to doubt this for now. Usually just the intra-day deformations of the terrain between the towers through hydrological activity should far exceed what GNSS can achieve.
It is just VERY VERY hard to beat the predictability of orbits.
Did the sisters know where you lived? Curious if the police provided them with an area and the sisters were able to give a proper address?
Why is it so hard to believe that the police can use our devices to backtrack us, as both carriers and police officers have said numerous times?
Occams razor
says that police can locate phones
To be honest I thought OP said they lived in an apartment; a house is a different story.
Did he connect to your wifi? That would give the exact property to go to instead of via gps.
But the pinging of the phone would not share ip address
E911 would get bssid of the access point.
If they called. I'm not sure 911 can initiate a call back to a device that hasn't called before.
Does his sister know where you live? General area+basic knowledge = most likely address.
"and notify the user when such attempts are made to their device."
We aren't going to remove the security state. We should make all attempts to, but it won't happen. What needs to happen is accountability. I should be able to turn off sharing personal information and if someone tries I should be notified and have recourse. This should also be retroactive. If I have turned off sharing and someone finds a technical loophole and uses it, there should be consequences. The only way to stop the rampant abuse is to treat data like fire. If you have it and it gets out of control you get burned, badly.
I turned off all cell carrier tracking 5 years ago. 100% of it.
By canceling my cell phone subscription.
I know I know, I must be amish, I have heard it all. But I run two tech companies, travel, have a family, and do most of the things most around here probably do other than doom scrolling.
So much more time in my own head to think.
I have a hybrid approach with GrapheneOS. 99% of the time I only use WiFi on my phone via a Tor router. I have an anonymous KeepGo ESIM with global data that does not expire and use it when I have to when Im away from home.
I started that way, though with AOSP I compiled myself. It was a nice nicotine patch but after a while my phone was so quiet and boring without proprietary social apps demanding my attention, I often found myself leaving it at home. Eventually I abandoned it entirely.
Cancel phone subscription and have family. I don’t understand how you still have family? You don’t have any emergencies?
Before the era of cell phone and always on comms, leaving the house was a way to NOT be found on purpose. If you weren't home, people just had to wait!
"Somehow" society has converged on a norm where a chance at reproduction is only afforded to smartphone users.
A rather elegant solution to the problem how not every person likes smartphones, no?
I first had a conversation with my wife at a pizza place hanging out with mutual friends. We bonded through in person face to face conversation like cave people. She never used dating apps so there was no other way we were going to meet.
Turns out if you leave your home and hang out with people a lot, you build better social skills, and potential partners can get to know you as a friend first, and are more inclined to give you a chance at something more than they are when you are just another awkward photo in a dating app.
Did people "have emergencies" before the invention of mobile phones?
Your question is silly
I don’t think it’s a silly question.
Before mobile phones, there were public phone booths. Along motorways there were often call boxes. There’s little to none of that anymore.
Also before mobile phones, if you had an accident in a remote area you were at the mercy of someone passing by and noticing you. Today, modern cars can call 911 on your behalf along with your location without you even being conscious. Or if you don’t have a car that does this, then your cell can be used. Let’s not also forget iPhones calling for help when they detect you had a fall at home.
Yes emergencies existed before mobile phones. I contend that the use of mobile phones has led to better outcomes when an emergency happens. I also admit mobile phones will have caused some of those emergencies (distracted driver etc).
I have many times used public telephones when I really need to when traveling. The main difference today is they are free. Every airport lobby, every hotel, and most business can call a taxi or call 911 in a pinch. There are also free public use phones (often hardcoded to emergency numbers or taxi companies) often in hotel and airport lobbies.
I never noticed them until I got rid of my phone but they are everywhere.
In NYC all the payphones were replaced with wifi stations that also allow you to make free phone calls for emergencies etc.
Also all cell phones can call 911 without a sim or subscription so someone really worried about having instant access to call 911 in an emergency could have one of those keychain sized dumb phones they leave charged and powered off until they need it.
You are highly conditioned by marketing and social pressure to think you need to have a cell phone tracking you and distracting you at all times to live a safe and productive life in the modern world, but this is just not true.
Lived without one for 5 years, and have experienced accidents and emergencies in that time like anyone else.
Right, typically in an emergency you’ll want to call the police or paramedics, and later family. Front desk of any business or bystander can do the first, hospital can do the latter.
How do you work on the go? I use personal hotspot quite often. Not only when on the go, but if there is unstable WiFi. It’s saved me on multiple occasions - both for live-site incidents and for random meetings.
It really depends on who you work as and what your working conditions are. For example, if I had some non-management position at a company that insists on working from the office, I would make sure that I'm NOT available outside my designated work place.
I basically never work away from my home desk unless I am staying multiple days away from home. In that case I bring a tiny QubesOS laptop that I attach to my leg with a leg bag (I hate carrying a backpack) and work anywhere with wifi, which is never hard to find.
Pardon my skepticism but I find it hard to believe you can actually participate in western society without choosing to have a government mandated tracking device?
Maybe you live somewhere this is possible but it's definitely not in the developed world
Runs 2 tech companies - the basic promise of the US is when you're rich you can do whatever the hell you want because you can pay people to handle stuff for you.
But also, one doesn't always need a phone - phones can die, signal is not gauranteed. What are your "must have" things that require one to have a smart phone to participate? Assume the poster has a home phone, laptop, and credit card.
Small companies that are 100% FOSS with no VC investment, where everyone has to pull their own weight. I do not have a personal assistant or anything like that and navigate the real world, travel, etc, very often alone.
The failure mode isn't as a tech company CEO. As you point out, if you're the CEO, you have the luxury of defining yourself unavailable as CEO whenever the hell you please. If the website is down out if business hours and you haven't made it someone else's problem that you're paying for it to stay up, it can just be down. No, the issue is as a father/mother/husband/wife/son/daughter to someone's you love dearly enough to consider them family, biological or otherwise.
It's rather dramatic, but the phone call/conversation I could never forgive myself for missing, is the last words of a loved one before they die, whether due to car crash or some other calamity (9/11). Or missing the opportunity to take the very next flight out to see them before they pass. You are free to treat your family, biological or chosen, as you see fit, I just know there are some phone calls I'd rather be woken up in the middle of the night for than miss. Reaching me via cellphone is more direct than trying to find whatever hotel I'm at since I'm on the road as CEO and talking to customers and vendors in person on the road as CEO, so calling my house phone doesn't help.
I gave up my phone as a lead security engineer at a vc funded company, and continued this when I quit to run my consulting firm full time as single proprietorship. Now we are a team of five running a consulting firm and a PaaS.
I spent most of my career as an infrastructure engineer so high redundancy, self healing you can trust, infrastructure-as-code, and follow-the-sun shifts, are healthier for everyone than expecting people to be available to work 24/7.
Phones are required, insering a SIM isn't. Your work and home probably have wifi, and services meant to be used on the go are commonly built with offline use in mind. Especially those you actually need in society
A burner phone left at home just for the ability to receive SMS would be helpful for account registrations though
> services meant to be used on the go are commonly built with offline use in mind.
I'm not sure about this. With everyone moving to the cloud and web applications, this seems to not have been the case for a while to me. There surely are what are now called "local-first" alternatives to the main services (in the past those would just be called desktop applications), but if someone is using Office 365, does it have an offline mode? (Sincerely asking since I never tried this, plus, you should still get to load the web application before losing connection, right?)
> Phones are required
Depends on how you define a phone. Cell phones are not required but SMS capable phone numbers kind of are.
I ported my cell phone number to a voip provider and get SMS and can even take calls from my desktop, or laptop, or simple voip capable DECT phones around my home as needed.
>Maybe you live somewhere this is possible but it's definitely not in the developed world
Since the whole world is covered by satellites, living in the undeveloped doesn't guarantee privacy.
I am a security engineer and I live and work in Silicon Valley with an active social life. None of these things require a phone.
I’m old enough to remember when nobody had a cell phone and we all worked and had social lives. I love it when people think you cant possibly live without something that didn’t exist a short time ago.
That said I’d be lost in five minutes if I tried to drive somewhere without gps
> That said I’d be lost in five minutes if I tried to drive somewhere without gps
I used to be that way, but MRI brain scan studies have proven that regular use of GPS actually atrophies the parts of your brain responsible for navigation. You likely need a GPS because you make too much use of a GPS.
I weaned myself off by regularly printing directions or writing them down before I leave. Eventually I finally learned to navigate the san francisco bay area on my own but I always keep a map in the car just in case, though I almost never use it.
Oh yeah I’m sure that’s the case. I was directionally challenged even before, but could then (and I’m sure could still) print and drive. The good old days of AAA and Mapquest!
Though I do have a phone, I do not use WhatsApp. I get the same responses you are getting - people absolutely can not believe that we function in society.
I do not use WhatsApp, Instagram, or FB.
You pay a price (we miss many party invitations, only one friend consistently emails us and FB everyone else), but it's worth it.
Recently spoke to a colleague in Italy that told me he hates WhatsApp, but is forced to use it because the school of his kids in Rome use it as sole means to communicate, despite this being a legal violation (public organizations in Europe must use GDRR-compliant tools).
If a school tried to demand me or my kid have a cell phone or use any proprietary software, or accept the terms of service of a private corporation like meta or google, I would absolutely sue them and turn it into a media shit storm if needed.
Many have done this and won around the world. People just need to stop being cowards.
I bought into something like this, removed all social media for 2-3 years.
I lost so many connections to people and it seemed to set me back multiple years on my goals. I thought it would make me more productive, instead my userbase got cut in half.
I'm never doing that again. Huge mistake.
If your entire social graph only exists on proprietary platforms then cutting that all at once is going to be brutal. I had to be a loud advocate for open solutions, and had to lead by example organizing IRL events myself with oldschool email .ical invites that still work just fine.
Many of the most talented people in the world only exist on free open source platforms. Social media is not the enemy. Proprietary centralized stock price driven social media is the enemy.
Come hang out on #!:matrix.org or other great tech communities on Matrix, and/or get invested in networks like Mastodon.
I've lost connections with "internet friends" but I see my real friends more often than does the average person my age. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Hear hear. The types of people that would stop being friends with you for not using proprietary software and platforms are the type of people that would stop being friends with someone for not eating meat, or some other ethical stance.
These are shitty shallow people, not real friends. Real friends will support, or at least tolerate, your honest ethics based lifestyle choices. Smart people often -prefer- being around people that think differently from them, and being different can even be an asset in making more smart friends.
I can understand that in some social contexts it is possible. For me personally it would be very hard. E.g. most school-related stuff of our daughter is coordinated through WhatsApp, same with birthday parties, playdates, etc.
I’m guessing you have a bunch of other people with their own cell phones doing things?
That’s the reason most other people are (fundamentally) going to struggle.
Traveling internationally or domestically, booking flights, hotels, going to concerts, theme parks, the movies, organizing hangouts with friends, exploring new locations... all of these things I do just fine by using a web browser on a desktop computer before I leave home, and sometimes printing a couple things. I live a typical middle class lifestyle just without the doom scrolling.
All the ways of living an active life engaged in the modern world that worked before the 2009 smartphone explosion still work just fine today. Just without tiktok and instagram. I think I am okay without those.
So what - printed maps? No ‘where are you?’ texts or the like? No looking up nearby anything you’re curious about but didn’t know about before hand?
Certainly possible, I guess, if everyone in your circle does the same, and has a ton of patience, and you spend a ton of extra time doing all the prep in advance. And don’t need to deal with things like traffic jams right now, or the like.
> printed maps?
For complex routes. Otherwise I just jot down a couple exits and an intersection and call it good.
> No ‘where are you?’ texts or the like?
No one expects this from me day to day because I am rarely away from home for more than a few hours at a time without a friend or family member, but when air traveling I have my tiny pocket laptop and check in at travel hubs from wifi. Everyone in your life will get used to it, especially if they see the results in it allowing you to be a more present person.
> No looking up nearby anything you’re curious about but didn’t know about before hand?
I tend to discover a lot of authentic hidden gems the travel guides don't mention, by just walking around a new area. Generally if I am traveling somewhere new, I go early to get a lay of the land.
When you agree to meet someone somewhere at some time, all further communication is redundant (I expect you to be reasonably punctual and I don't need your SMS updates "Hi, leaving the house now." followed by "hi, I'm running 5 min late", I will wait, and if you are not coming, you can call me to apologize if you care one bit).
For people who don't know their way, you can use in-car navigation systems rather than smartphone map apps.
Ah, so I’m guessing 40+ and with a very select group of friends with a long term history.
While I agree, that isn’t something 99.9% of the population is going to do successfully.
Still 30s, but also I make new friends all the time from 20s to 70s by just trying to say yes to go new places and hang out with new people. Board game nights, concerts, bars, video game nights, hackerspace events, movie nights, puzzle parties, and hosting events myself.
All sorts of places to make friends at any age once one is willing to put a phone down long enough to say hi to someone new!
99.9%? I am old enough to remember time before mobile phones, and being at a place at a prearranged time is possible. Also, if you are late, you can actually do a phone call to inform the other party - all you need is a feature phone, not smart phone.
I personally respect other peoples time and I expect the same for me. That is, I have cut out people from my life in the past that repeatedly would text "hey I'm 20mins late" 2mins before the agreed time. That is still disrespectful with my time, because now I know you are late, but still lost those 20mins. Some people don't consider that rude and for some reason do not see that this would not work if everybody does it. Needless to say, my friends know that I value reliability, and most of them do. People that don't respect that don't need to be in my social group, or at least I don't make plans with them.
If you want to know why these are different today, the word is called Norms.
At the international relations level, this idea falls under Constructivism.
Maybe these are a bit obvious, but knowing the word that describes this may help further research.