County pays $600k to pentesters it arrested for assessing courthouse security
arstechnica.com374 points by MBCook 12 hours ago
374 points by MBCook 12 hours ago
What is wild about this is the cops showed up, held the guys, they showed them their letter that they were authorized and the cops called the references on the letter and everyone was fine.
Then the Sheriff showed up and insisted they be arrested...
Everything was fine until one person who didn't get it, who happened to be in charge, showed up.
Oh I'm sure the sheriff got it, he just wanted to get in a pissing match with the people who signed the letter.
The sheriff felt like he had "egg on his face", and responded like a child.
Per the legal system, arrested is probably safe course of action until they could verify the authenticity of the letter. It's really the ensuing events after that were abysmally stupid.
They did verify the authenticity. The police won't launch a full investigation for every single possibility and doing so would be a colossal waste of resources. They are, in fact, allowed to make some calls and be satisfied at that point that the letter is authentic without investigating every single fraudulent possibility.
So you read this:
> the cops showed up, held the guys
> they showed them their letter that they were authorized
> the cops called the references on the letter
> Then the Sheriff showed up and insisted they be arrested...
and your response is:
> Per the legal system, arrested is probably safe course of action until they could verify the authenticity of the letter.
?
If they know who they are, what's the point? You can track them down later and throw on ~fraud charges if the letter ends up fake.
>When Sheriff Leonard arrived, the tone suddenly changed. He said the Dallas County Courthouse was under his jurisdiction and he hadn’t authorized any such intrusion.
Reading only ever so slightly between the lines, it's clear that he probably did get it, just that he either wanted to swing his dick around for its own sake, or, more likely it seems from the dedcription in the article, resented that he was kept out of the loop on "his turf".
I remember reading about this when it first happened. Glad there was at least a somewhat positive outcome.
For reference, here is the HN thread shortly after the arrest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21000273
$600k for 6 years of legal battle and facing felony charges? no bueno
The 6 year, $600K lawsuit was something they initiated against the county.
The initial charges against them were initially dropped to misdemeanors and then dismissed entirely, but that was a separate matter resolved earlier.
Even being charged without conviction can result in a serious reduction in job opportunities.
Is that accurate? Being charged with a crime but then having charges subsequently dropped shouldn't show up in a background check. Plus, given their line of work, I think in their profession it would basically be a badge of honor.
Yes it absolutely matters. My brother was charged with three felonies in his only arrest, all of them dropped.
It shows up in his background report and no company has cared (or taken the time to notice) that they are dropped charges and not convictions.
He's basically treated like a felon and effectively got bumped out of his career.
This can happen just being under investigation. Or worse, no arrest, conviction or investigation. Just word of mouth kind of stuff can do it.
Employers also have a convenient privilege to maintain these narratives about a former employee. This is employer to employer confidentiality where they can say almost anything about you to another potential employer and you never have the chance to hear it or correct it.
Everyone should support the ability of even a person with a conviction to continue working and contributing to society. It's kind of a civil death that leads to bad outcomes for those targeted.
>Everyone should support the ability of even a person with a conviction to continue working and contributing to society. It's kind of a civil death that leads to bad outcomes for those targeted.
And not just those targeted either. The communities where those people live are deprived of the higher economic activity of someone with a middle/upper-middle-class income/lifestyle than someone who can only get a job mopping floors or washing cars.
That has a definite downward drag on the economic health of the communities where folks aren't given the opportunity to contribute because of past transgressions or, as we're discussing here, unwarranted criminal charges and investigations.
It's not just sad, it's a disgusting waste of human potential. More's the pity.
Also, I've seen many job applications that ask a question like: "Have you ever been arrested for a crime, regardless of the outcome?" Presumably mere involvement with law enforcement (even if acquitted or charges dropped) is some kind of signal in these guys' risk formulas.
How fortunate to not live in China with its dystopian "social credit" system!
You'd have to get it expunged for it to not show up. Even then, it will still show up for security clearances and such.
Can confirm. I needed a security clearance for government contracting work when I was in my mid-30s. The background check flagged a dismissed charge from when I was a teenager.
Probably not in this case though.
It's hard to say if they would be able to gain security clearances in the future. Not to mention automated application systems will drop them from the system immediately with a prior arrest.
One of them went on to start their own physical pentest firm. I think they're doing fine. I also think if they'd lost clearances, or ran into later clearance problems, that would have made it into their complaint. I don't know, maybe you're right. It's not like I disagree with them about suing.
THIS should be illegal. If you are arrested and have all charges dropped, you should not show up on any database whatsoever, nor be required to answer “yes” to “gave you been arrested.”
The SF86 has a 7-year lookback on arrests. Clearance is fundamentally discretionary, though; it's a risk assessment. I don't think you have even a due process right to it.
I say all this but --- knowing that the principals in this story might read this thread and drop in and correct me, which would be awesome --- I think it's actually more likely that their careers benefited from this news story, and that they probably didn't lose any cleared business from it. I can't say enough that these two became industry celebrities over this case.
> Clearance is fundamentally discretionary, though; it's a risk assessment. I don't think you have even a due process right to it.
Security clearance is subject to due process protections (at least, insofar as it is a component of government hiring and continuation of employment), because government employment is subject to due process protections and the courts have not allowed security clearance requirements to be an end-run around that.