In a genre where spoilers are devastating, how do we talk about puzzle games?
thinkygames.com50 points by tobr 6 days ago
50 points by tobr 6 days ago
Outer Wilds, and imperatively its DLC, are transcendent gaming experiences.
Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls.
I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings.
Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly.
It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out.
Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience.
I highly recommend the game to anyone.
In terms of things I'd say to encourage someone to play without spoilers, I think I'd focus on mechanics, like:
1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time.
2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate.
3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.
P.S.: And if you're playing on a PC, know that there is one section of the game where you need to use your ship thrusters so very gently that it almost requires you to to use a controller.
2. Yes! The automatic notes are perfect for getting back on track without spoilers. "There is more to explore here."
I know for some people it removes a sense of wonder and mystery, but as a completionist sort, I really appreciate "you found everything nearby" indicators. It means the game/designer respects my time as a human with (a few) other things to do everyday.
is it really a puzzle game? I recently dragged myself through The Witness finally and found it to be mostly not that interesting, most puzzle games have bounced off me similarly.
Outer Wilds, though, what a game. but it felt more like exploring in BotW, even although there is obviously no combat... kinda? there is sort of "combat" in one of the planets, although the only thing that you can do is lose. hmm, that planet is like BotW, but you have 3 hearts and a stick, and every enemy is a Lynel.
Yeah I generally enjoy puzzle games and didn't find Outer Wilds very good from that perspective. And it had some surprisingly intensive dexterity requirements in sections of the game that make it impossible to progress without looking up spoilers, and I'm not talking about the spaceship controls.
And when I finally put the game down and just watched through the rest on Youtube, like, I could see what the game was getting at and why people would be fascinated by it but it was by no means life-changing unless you've had a very boring life.
It isn't very meaningful to assert your arbitrary threshold for "life-changing" as a criteria to measure one's life. It is quite distracting as a closer to an otherwise thoughtful reply.
I wasn’t really a fan, didn’t like the gameplay loop.
A puzzle game I liked 100x more is “Baba is You”. Should be very appealing to programmers.
After this comment I immediately closed my eyes and stuck my fingers in my ears (and added the game to my wishlist). I appreciate the rec, it looks great.
I really should get back to outer wilds. I like you bounced off of it because of the controls, and I keep meaning to go back because people I have faith in swear by it. I know the most basic secret you learn incredibly early, but that's the only 'spoiler' I know.
Controls were great, didn't see whatever it is that people love about the story, and the game loop made me quit.
The "first surprise" is why I tell people "Just play this game, and don't look up anything about it!".
The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
I guess this is the one time maybe reading the comments first saved me of a spoiler I didn't want to be exposed to, so thank you :) Guess I finally need to give it a try before it get accidentally spoiled for me.
I’ve played the main game but never the DLC. Is it worth going back and running through again?
Yes!
Introduces what is easily my favorite planet, and a completely new story of nearly identical length.
New characters, new tools, new mechanics, new puzzles. Same feel (except narratively its a bit more spoopy). It's like a selfquel.
(Also, worth noting that if you start a new game, you can just go straight to playing the DLC content without having to replay or complete the base game)
I think it is worth knowing that the spookiness isn't for everybody and is the part most likely to turn some players off. The game offers features to make it as mild as possible without destroying their narrative intent, but it is definitely there.
If you know that you frighten easily and don't react well to it - like maybe you went in a haunted house ride once and then couldn't sleep for a week, this might not be your jam and that's OK.
It's not a skill issue, the game has been conceived so that if you scare easily but keep playing you can work around the issue and succeed. But obviously if after that initial moment of terror you just can't face playing any more that's not a good purchase.
Definitely, but said spookiness is also completely without violence or gore or any real "horror" tropes other than trying to stealth your way through dark hallways.
(Light spoilers) Supposedly the design intent was that you're not supposed to stealth in the dark much at all! It's really not obvious though, so it's a bit of a failure of design in that particular aspect. Interview with a dev: https://medium.com/@cordialkobold/interview-with-alex-beachu...
Still spooky atmosphere for sure.
To counter-balance the positive comments - I've found the DLC dissapointing. It replaces fun of trial and error with hours of boring walking in the dark and cheap horror elements. The best part is probably the "surprise" section, but the rest is just meh.
> I’ve met plenty of thinky players who reject any help not contained within the game itself—I’ve been that person—but these days, with so much to play, I simply don’t have the heart to ironman a puzzle for hours and hours just to maintain a sense of pride. I’d rather see more of what a game has to offer. Sue me.
I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them.
If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.
I looked up the answer to some of the bird noise puzzles in the witness because I figured out (correctly) the concept, which was fairly obvious, but the actual noises in some of them were impossible to discern for me. that area was unique in that it required some actual skill beyond thinking about the puzzle
some of the harder ones I did screenshot and overlay in Inkscape and draw out the candidate shapes, which I guess isn't really cheating?
The AAA game industry as a whole has encouraged this mentality in gamers. They make games which are basically movies that you have to put a bit of work into to watch. The concept of virtuous struggle and overcoming challenge -- which used to be the default in arcade games or consoles like the NES -- has been relegated to niche categories.
I agree with you though. The idea of having my sudoku puzzle spoiled for me by giving me a critical digit seems totally alien. They might as well be the kid blurting out answers in math class, depriving everyone else of learning. Of course many kids in the class were happy to have the "freebies" even though it contributed to lack of skills down the road.
I have a limit how much time I’ll spend on a puzzle. So if it exceeds that I don’t mind cheating to get to the next part.
My limit might be lower than yours but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong having a limit that means you shouldn’t play puzzle games.
I think this is why you have to be playing a few puzzle games "at the same time" - so when you get blocked/stuck in one, you can work on another.
I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
A little different than what you're saying, but you reminded me of an experience I had with Inside - which I enjoyed a lot overall, but -
There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls.
It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
I like digging into well designed puzzles and figuring them out, but also - like the author, I like interacting with friends around puzzles and the group dynamic and power of bouncing things off of each other, as well as the reduced likelihood of stupid blind spots.
When I played through Blue Prince, I had an important area of the game undiscovered for in game weeks because I just didn't notice a path that was not meant to be hidden. It was in an area that it made no sense for me to further explore because it was challenging to get to and seemed to have nothing else to offer (I presumed until I had unlocked something further in the game). It was a big relief when I was talking through my progress with a friend who was further along than I, and they prompted me to go back and look again.
I had a very similar issue with Chants of Sennaar (another incredible game), where there were exactly 3 words I was missing, I knew what they were, but couldn't find them. I kept going anyway and found one (by a different method than usual), then eventually after scouring the whole map twice had to look it up and there was just a stairs down the edge of one section that I didn't see at all, but which also didn't respond to the "hint" button that normally shows you any direction you can go or thing you can interact with.
Also very glad I looked up the solution for the Obelisk puzzle in Fez as there was no way I was getting that (seemingly incredibly contrived, but apparently not correctly solved yet) solution.
An excellent 3 part video from Elyot Grant [0] introduced me to the term "fiero" for this conquering after a struggle, in contrast to a simple "aha/eureka". The difference being one is transmissible, the other is not. Thought it was a nice distinction. Highly recommend the videos!
[0] Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCHciE9CYfA
And there's also Tunic, that is both a zelda-like action RPG and and information game !
So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.
A mini version of this in Mario Maker (and thus MM2 which is currently playable) is the Knowledge Check Point.
Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena
1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached.
2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave.
My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.
Really glad they brought up Outer Wilds -- it's exactly the sort of game where the tiniest detail is a spoiler. Knowledge discovery's the game, so any piece of information about the game that doesn't need to be discovered is like cutting ahead to the next chapter in a game. Like playing on someone else's game file.
Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
> Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough.
I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way.
And I miss the world, and the gameplay.
The strategy I see with the most success in online communities is something to the effect of, "If it appears in the trailer, or what is very obviously the earlygame tutorial area, it's basically fair game. Otherwise use spoiler tags." Some puzzle games are best experienced entirely unspoiled (Outer Wilds) and others benefit from sortof a layered hints approach.
Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.
Come to r/myst. I think we do alright. It's true that it's its own skill though. You have to learn to refer to things in vague terms at least.
If you like Myst, try the RHEM series. Not quite as compelling a setting/story (though that's praise of Myst far more than any put down on RHEM), much, much better puzzles, with the same "Slideshow of 3D rendered environments" presentation.
I really really love both Outer Wilds and the DLC and think the reddit community, when asked, does a great job of providing advice or tips for specific situations without revealing too much.
Has anyone played Bean and Nothingness? Great game, but also a great Discord server for this problem, with lots of norms around spoiling. I've been disappointed in some board gaming forums moving to Discord (because it's hard to search for old knowledge), but for puzzle video games it's almost ideal.