Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience
myvolvoex90.com401 points by prova_modena 2 days ago
401 points by prova_modena 2 days ago
Volvo may not want to replace the car for the guy...but from a marketing standpoint, they truly picked the wrong hill.
The site is very nice and pretty thorough.
Makes me not want to get this car or any Volvo!
I applaud his efforts to document this what must’ve been a nightmare of a case for him. But it felt like a lot of the wording is speculative or hyperbolic in nature and aggressively tries to paint Volvo in a bad light. For example:
“Analysis of Volvo's Final Response: This response … confirms Volvo's complete abandonment of customer responsibility…This is Volvo's definition of ‘customer care’ in 2025.”
“Center Display Failure - Critical Interface Blackout: Main Controls Inaccessible”
“Climate Control Malfunction - Climate System Override: Controls Unresponsive Despite Interface Status”
“Complete Center Screen Malfunction - Total System Breakdown: Hard Reset Failed to Restore Screen”
I know little about Volvo or this case; I’m choosing to offer them some benefits of doubt. Comms and decision making are prone to break down on the corporate ladder. Volvo had no doubt fumbled his case badly but I’m not convinced it is indicative of the company’s overall customer support policy. Sure, the main touchscreen had failed. But how is this an “override” of HVAC or a “total system breakdown”? And what’s the “system” anyways? On top of all that, these subtitle summaries smell like AI.
I don’t deny that Volvo has a lot to answer for. Though the choice of these instigating descriptions might not be the best one giving the author is actively pursuing litigation.
I don't think I'd spend 150k for a car, I imagine it would create a certain sense of entitlement, but he does sound pretty annoying.
It's just an order mess-up, but opening with stuff like: "Sent a formal complaint to Volvo Canada on January 16, requesting escalation to Managing Director Matt Girgis. Volvo Canada never confirmed this escalation." is a vibe.
He puts down a deposit, and waits almost a year, then experiences multiple delays. He seems to be experiencing multiple issues before he requests escalation. I don't think he opens with escalation request in a second email. His vibe seems to be of someone being ignored and just told to deal with it, and not willing to just accept something less than the original agreement.
What would be a "better" vibe than requesting an escalation? if you buy something and you don't get something you've bought? Just say "oh well, it is what it is"?
Ordering a custom car build from a factory is an experience. These sorts of delays are not uncommon, and there just isn't much anything the US or Canadian divisions can do about it most of the time.
That's for basically what amounts to supercars. I imagine a normal luxury car for the "mass market" like the EX90 is going to get even less attention.
For someone not used to it, I can see it being quite frustrating if their dealer is not totally up-front about what an allocation and build timeframe actually means.
A deposit is really not anything more than giving the dealer a bit of assurance that you will actually buy the car they burned their allocation slot on when it arrives - vs. them using it for a more standard common build that has a wider market for it. You are under no obligation to buy the hot pink on light blue custom color options you ordered should it arrive and you decide it looks horrible, for example.
It's a strange weird scene. I followed this on various car forums when I was planning on ordering a custom spec for my "dream car" a while back, but decided to just get something not quite optioned how I'd like it off the lot instead.
> there just isn't much anything the US or Canadian divisions can do about it most of the time
This sort of thinking about the internals of the business isn't necessary. They're paid to be there; they need to manage their suppliers, internal or external.
Having a very expensive car just randomly roll to a stop on a highway is a "vibe", too. More of a vibe than anything we might reasonably claim to be picking up from this guy, I would opine.
Eh the author is coming from a place of emotion (considering the effort put into the website) so I would definitely cut them some slack on the fairness of their reporting. The owner is telling their story, not a journalist.
> But how is this an “override” of HVAC or a “total system breakdown”?
Complete failure of the throttle would fall within total system breakdown to me.
> Comms and decision making are prone to break down on the corporate ladder.
Businesses do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they aren't human. If their support ladder broke down to this point that it is fair game to name and shame and up to them to do a PR push and fix their support.
Referring to GP, is there any other type of HN comment than one that completely ignores the human emotion, instead wanting to focus purely on technical and specific pedantry?
The throttle suddenly cutting out on the highway sure sounds like a "total system breakdown" to me.
I agree it's not deadly critical, but if you can't pass state inspection with broken screen/engine light/broken stop light then case is clear.
They have cars these days that put essential climate, infotainment, and other controls being a screen. This could be a lot worse than just a false positive check engine light.
In Tesla's speed and "engine" warning lights are on screen. IMO it's not really critical, given you can reboot the screen while driving. There aren't any "controls" on screen, idk what you are waffling about.
This is Volvo being discussed, not Tesla, and the very specific controls are shown in the article linked.
Idk why you're pulling this non sequitur and then discussing with it?
A lot of the language and wording on this site it’s not actually the author’s - most of it is AI-generated. The “analysis of”, which is actually longer than the letter it analyzes, is a glaring example.
Agree 100% the website is very well layed out. The information is presented in very readable format. After a single scroll I was able to fully understand the issues and conclude that the guy has a valid case. Too bad for Volvo for having a horrible customer support
I was thinking about the site too. It looked like a perfect example for AI, then I found the lovable badge.
Lovable is really good at this kind of use case and experience. Ironically it's also Swedish philosophy based, no much hardcore tech(the heavy lifting is claude ) but focus on the experience. Similar to Volvo not promoting speed and handling but emphasize safety. But we know now that speed and handling in many ways show the tech of that vehicle and it reflects on safety to a large scale Imho
Not a huge fan of the fact that everything looks like a popup or LinkedIn widget.
I was genuinely thinking about buying a Volvo car today. This blog changed my mind now.
It seem they are the exact opposite of what I thought.
I loved our XC90 (non electric) but one day rainwater began pouring in through the windsheild behind the rear-view mirror. It quickly got into the electrical system and nothing worked reliably after that. Volvo absolutely refused to fix it, or acknowledge that there was a problem, despite hundreds of posts pointing out similar window leaks. Was very disappointing.
This is why it is of crucial importance for companies to take things like this seriously. A customer complaint can quickly become a crisis and lead do serious damage to the brand.
Anyone with any training in crisis management would immediately refund the purchase price, apologize and offer a discount on a replacement.
The negative publicity of this post alone has cost the company millions in customer goodwill.
I love that you made a website to spread the word. Well done. Screw those guys.
Hey Volvo, I’ll now never buy a Volvo. I always thought they were meant to be safe?
Old Volvo is different than new Volvo. They went downhill when and after ford bought them. Also the new cars lack the charm of the older 240s, they're sorta just regular luxury cars now.
Only recently sold my 850 because we're expecting a kid and wanted to mount the car seat correctly.
As far as I know the XC90/EX90 is the only SUV in its class to not have a fatality for anyone inside it at the time of an accident yet.
It’s a mass market luxury vehicle and the brand is still considered about the safest you can buy today.
It’s certainly not known for quality or reliability though. You buy them if your sole focus is on crash safety it seems.
Off course it's safe, something which doesn't drive with a "Critical System Communication Fault" and unable to enter in the first place due to a "Digital Key Failure" is sure as hell not going to cause a fatality ;-)
There is a difference between crash safety and reliability.
Pretending “unable to drive” is a safety issue is silly. People don’t buy these cars for reliability or quality.
I have zero interest in a Volvo but have a few friends who are Volvo fans. They only really talk about crash survivability and crash test results - any other metric really is irrelevant to them, or at least seen as a trade off worth it to them.
Volvo sadly no longer stands for Swedish quality and safety.
What you’re buying is essentially an overpriced Chinese car with Volvo stickers.
And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
> .... if you want reliable quality.
I'm saying this as a German, i strongly reject those accusations. Do not buy from VW group (and not from PSA/Stellantis (Citroen, Fiat, Opel etc brands), either).
I have been driving VW for decades. Never had any issue apart from some Apple CarPlay snags. Drove Golf, Touran and Tuiguan Allspace. Always a pleasure.
The headliner has come undone in every VW ive had and the DSG is great when great, and has… character otherwise. The aftermarket support is awesome and you’ll always find some nerd that knows all the quirks and how to fix them though. I work on my cars and while sometimes the engineering decisions are over complicated and you need all the specialized tools, some are clever and I appreciate them.
Looking at getting a Golf R once our Prius gives me an excuse (just got rear ended and the thing doesn’t even chirp, squeak or complain, so I might be waiting for a while).
Our passat has been so much better than our previous Kia and Renault, at least. 10 years without any non-normal breakage, a water pump did break and for some reason that is considered normal. If thats all that breaks during this time I am happy enough.
Japanese is maybe even better, but I just cant get over the styling.
What reliable is left?
Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, Honda.
Not sure if Hyundai & Kia are quite as reliable, but if not it's on them because they have some of the best warranties in the industry.
Mazdas too. I find Toyota's suspensions and driving dynamics terrible. Mazda represents a perfect combination of good Japanese reliability and good handling dynamics. I also like that they still offer a proper automatic transmission in their cars (as opposed to the CVT epidemic in other makes), as well as naturally aspirated engine options (whereas many other makes only offer turbos now).
The days of their collaboration with Ford are long gone, and with it their body durability problems. They still collaborate with Toyota though.
My 2014 Mazda 3 has fairly regular infotainment issues, audio playing on my phone but no audio from the speakers, resolved by rebooting it.
Also had an issue with the backup camera cutting out. Was caused by a loose connector. Dealership was unwilling to help for free so I just cleaned the contacts and reseated the connector myself. Months later I received a recall notice with no fix available, still more months later hey finally said there was a repair but I haven’t brought it in yet.
All that said I’m still happy with the car despite these imperfections and will keep driving it until the wheels fall off, and wouldn’t have any reservations about buying a new one.
A recall notice with no fix for a backup camera? Did they expect you to just cease use of the car entirely or what?
I mean, the rear window was still transparent it’s not like a couldn’t see where I was going entirely. I did miss the much wider FOV of the camera when backing out of my garage though.
Maybe they are better now, but I had two Mazdas between about 2005 and 2015. They were fine for the most part, but their frames rusted out and had to be scrapped well before the rest of the car was worn out. They're not really suitable for long-term use in the midwestern/northeast US salt belt unless you're a high-roller who only leases cars.
That's what I meant, those problems have been solved in recent years. Their partnership with Ford ended by 2015 at the latest
From what I know, Mazdas are the most European Japanese cars: more fun and less reliable. I was considering an MX-5 / Miata once, and... they rust quickly (maybe the current model doesn't).
Yessss. Happy to hear this. A Miata has been on the wishlist for a while now.
My mother has had two of them and they are very fun to drive -- even completely stock. The first was a 91 (how I learned to drive a manual transmission) and the second/current is a 2005. The newer one is more powerful (not sure how many HP but it seems significant) but I still prefer the older one. The design was peak 80s Japanese functional minimalism and there was no magic behind any of its features.
However, as it applies to the parent comment, I can't actually say too much about reliability, as both of them were driven primarily on weekends and _maybe_ 2K miles per year.
I own a 2011 3 hatchback, bought new in 2010. Besides wear items, I think I’ve replaced one belt and one hose. It’s only on its third battery and 2nd/3rd lightbulbs all around. Absolutely the most reliable car I’ve ever owned, whether I measure by problems/mile, problems/year, or dollars/year.
I also have a Miata (ND - 4th gen) that gets driven less than 3K miles/year. No problems there other than Mazda’s buggy CarPlay (and insane choice to disable the touchscreen when in motion).
I believe there’s a way to enter dev mode on the infotainment and reenable the touch screen while in motion. Try looking on YouTube. I found the method for my 2014 but neglected to actually do it since I prefer the center console wheel anyway.
New manual miatas have transmissions that grenade themselves. miata.net has a whole forum dedicated to it: https://forum.miata.net/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=172
The Corolla I was driving recently can definitely not be recommended. It was a rental.
Was a Hybrid, though that shouldn't affect this. It wouldn't save most of the settings I changed. Apparently you can either save it "to the key" (I googled how to do it, didn't work) or to your "profile" with a mobile app. I would never want to have to use my mobile to save car settings, even if I owned it, let alone a rental.
It has a feature that scans road signs and displays them on the dash. Awesome feature, which I've had in other cars before. Just in case you missed one and usually more accurate than Google maps for dynamic situations like construction zones. Unfortunately it loudly beeps and blinks at you if you happen to go over the limit or god forbid set the cruise control above the limit. This can be disabled individually but is part of the settings that don't save across car shutdowns.
Why is that an issue? Because setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality as evidenced by speed measuring displays I drove by. At 100km/h you'll probably be going 90. I learned the 6 key presses on the steering wheel to disable this after starting the car real fast. Unfortunately it disables the entire feature (else it'd be a lot more key presses and I ain't doing that). If this wasn't a rental but a purchase I'd be in this guys boat and trying to return the car.
This is just one example. The other more dire one is the cruise control. I've mentioned it elsewhere before and this Corolla isn't the only one, but the automatic breaking in these cars nowadays is dangerous. The amount of time I was sitting in the car with my foot right above the accelerator in case I need to power through an automatic breaking situation was unreal.
So glad to have been back home after vacation, driving my Subaru (with an adaptive cruise control that does not have this issue).
> setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality as evidenced by speed measuring displays I drove by. At 100km/h you'll probably be going 90.
This is very common and it's probably a deliberate choice of the manufacturer.
I know that my old car in the 90s reported 10 km/h more than the real speed and most other cars did the same, especially at low speeds. My current car is not as bad but I have to set 52 to go 50, 72 to go 70.
Furthermore some speed displays are calibrated differently. Some of them report me at 50, 47, 53 at different towns on the same route. I know I'm OK at 52 because I never got a fine.
I'm more conservative on roads that I'm not familiar with (eg: on a vacation in another country.) The general rule has always been to go at the same speed of the other cars.
Fun fact, you can buy a 500$ immobilizer thing at a Toyota dealership, and it has an option to persist that 6-key press setting.
What's your beef with CVT, especially with Toyota's planetary gear? The latter is probably the greatest development in transmission in the last 50+ years.
Mazda is responsible for one of the biggest reliability cock-ups in modern automotive history. A lot of Americans are not aware of this because this generation of diesel motor didn't make it to the American market but for many years they sold cars with a diesel engine with multiple critical manufacturing and design issues that resulted in thousands and thousands of defective engines. In many markets this was never recalled and at least in some markets Mazda's response was to draw another line higher up on diesel dipsticks so the owner could monitor if their crankcase was filling up with diesel, which would eventually dilute the engine oil and destroy the turbo and other components.
In my country used car dealers will not touch Mazda diesels for trade-ins because they always come back to them with destroyed engines.
Our Kia is a deathtrap due to bad active safety assist software.
It's also miserable to drive because of beeping, controls that cannot be seen by the driver, and a dozen other obvious problems.
Supposedly Hyundai fixes such stuff before release, but I wouldn't risk it.
My Kia Stinger is 6 years old, ~45K miles, including some modifications, 8 HPDE track days, etc. It's had a few quirks that I've had to learn (don't switch from default driving mode to sport while driving in reverse and then quickly shifting to drive mode - it confuses the sensors. A restart solves the issue 100%). Sound system "enhanced" mode sometimes stops playing all sound - eventually it comes back, and turning off the enhanced mode always restores sound - but it sounds SO much better. Phantom presses on the center screen if there's a large temperature differential (screen heated up by the sun, A/C on in the car, for example). None critical to the basics.
It's never been back to the dealer except for a free oil change at ~1K miles. Mainly because the reputation of Kia dealers is that it's hard to say whether you will be in worse shape if they deny or accept your warrantied repair. I mean, if the engine fails, sure, they can't make it any worse. But there are many stories of people getting a recall and the coolant system not properly bled, so the car overheats on the way home. Or a dealer refusing an obvious warranty repair for ridiculous reasons - only to try to sell you a non-warranty repair for the same problem, etc.
I am driving my car as if there is no warranty, at this point. It's been a GREAT car to drive in most ways, but I don't expect Kia to come through and fix any drivetrain issue in the next few years / 55K miles, if needed.
Not so sure about Subaru. I love my Outback but it is also the only car I've ever owned which left me stranded twice due to two separate firmware issues. Both issues were known and Subaru failed to communicate them to me.
I will probably go with Toyota for our next car despite loving the handling and comfort of our Subaru.
Yeah, we have an Outback as well (2017) and it, too, left us "stranded" (it was parked at home but failed when we really needed it) due to probably the same thing ? Ours drained the battery dead both times. We brought it in both times and had them look it over, both times they blamed us, saying we left a light on (we didn't). Then my wife remembered a recall notice concerning the electrical system, and suddenly they were able to fix the issue. Really put a dent in my trust with them.
Great car otherwise. Well, the CVT isn't the best for driving. But the AWD and agility and snow handling is fantastic.
Same year here. Actually the battery charging issue left us stranded a few times but only once in public. It was the faulty fuel gauge firmware that left us stranded on the side of the I-5 freeway in the middle of CA.
The CVT sort of sucks. Mostly ok but we have a long lag between reverse and drive which causes the car to jerk forward if you try to accelerate before the forward motion starts. The turning radius is amazing though.
My father in law is a Toyota mechanic and warned me to get rid of the car before 100k miles though as more recent subies are as reliable as they used to be.
From what I’ve read, and what I get in the comments here, these too are plagued by electronics and software issues. I’m not sure this category of issues, especially software ones, are correctly taken into account in reliability scores. Ironically my current car (from 2010) doesn’t score too high in reliability, but not having a screen makes that whole class of problems go away.
I hope my current car makes it so that I can entirely skip the current gen cars to hopefully the future one with these issues sorted out, including physical buttons.
Was loyal Honda owner since my 1st one in 00s, my current two will be the last I own. Purchased brand new, multiple issues with body/chassis & HVAC in Pilot, electrical systems/motors in Oddy. The dealership tried to fix things and did it unprofessionally.
Kia's are sadly not that good, we had a Ceed with very obvious rust problems that was widespread. Re-painting did not help, it was the steel treatment that somehow wrecked the paint from underneath.
Kias EVs are even more famour for troubles, just google for Kia ICCU. Even the XC90 competitor EV9 seems to have some trouble with this still.
It's weird that Toyota cars are taking top spots in car breakdown statistics the last couple years. Hyundai & Kia have their EVs breakdown left and right with their ICCU failures, and spare parts seem to be in rather short supply (and a replaced ICCU can fail again). And their battery warranty is only 5 years / 100 km.
Hyundai/Kia are fine in Diesel engines, electric power trains are giving plenty of problems, and their 2.5L petrol engines are incredibly bad.
Outside that, they are cheap cars, and mine after 10 years have some paint chips even peeling.
The two main Achilles Heels of Hyundai/Kia are their ICE Engines and their EV ICCUs. Google reliability for both and proceed accordingly. They're good about replacing/fixing both issues when they come up, and normally have extended warranties, but they are critical components too and long lead times to fix.
Outside of those issues, which don't happen on all vehicles, I view the brand as pretty rock solid. I'm impressed by how quickly they iterate, their styling, and their NVH attributes. Their pricing has crept up a bit, but still not terrible.
If you have a problem they take 4 weeks to fix it all while you're paying $50+/day for a rental car that they will fight you tooth and nail on reimbursing.
One local dealer refused to honor under warranty the work another dealer did.
If you have any damage (even minor cosmetic) they will blame that on your issues regardless of relativity.
(I have a Hyundai that's had the ICCU replaced once, the ABS IEB twice, and the low-voltage battery 3 times, two of the 3 times on my dime. All on a less than 3-year-old car with less than 100k miles)
The company has been miserable to deal with compared to my past experiences with other brands.
Everything I've heard of their dealers & service departments are what keep me away from their EVs. On the one hand, performance/looks/fun factor to price, they are a pretty good value. On the other hand, if I were to spend $70k on an Ioniq 5N, I would have expectations of service which they are clearly not going to meet. So at that pricing level, its back to BMW EVs.
fwiw I've heard from others that their experience with Kia has been much better. That seems hard to believe since Kia is owned by Hyunday.
I definitely expected more Hyundai when I bought the most expensive EV they had to offer at the highest trim level available.
Very interesting. I had considered the Genesis sub-brand if only for the separate dealers, though there are much fewer of them.
On the plus side a lot of the Genesis vehicles seem like they slap every option the Germans make you pay $1000s each for into the base model, so decent value from that perspective.
I've sat in their EV hatch thing the GV60 in showroom and was impressed by the base features set. I also had a decent length uber ride sitting in the back of their ICE sedan, either the G80 or G90 and it was a nice executive sedan. My backseat reclined, it had motorized shades, the air vents in the back were actually powerful, etc.
Honorable mention - Hyundai Kona EV managed to build a reduction gear that blows around 100k km - just after warranty ends and they specifically recommend not changing the gear oil.
They managed to make an unreliable EV. Great kob, one of the few remaining gear in drivetrain and you managed to fuck that up. Maybe it's on purpose...
I recently got rid of a 2016 Kia Sonata with a severe (and getting worse) oil burning issue. It was well under 100k miles. We really liked the car otherwise overall. Great price, seemed to be made well, easy to work on. The extended warranty on these only applies if you actually blow up engine, which I wasn't willing to do deliberately because I have scruples.
(And according to forum threads, at the time this happened to this us, stealerships were putting people on a 1-2 year waitlist for remanufactured engines, or straight-up totalling their vehicles and giving them "market value" for the car, and these models had awful resale value exactly due to these problems.)
We had a 2015 Sorento with a similar issue. Kia said the oil burn rate was within specs and refused to act. It died at 105k, and they refused to do anything about it, even with documentation of the oil burn rate going back to 75k miles. We replaced the engine on our own dime, and it took me three weeks to find a single engine that was compatible.
That said, a few months ago my daughter was t-boned in it by a driving going 60+ MPH. The impact was directly on the driver’s door. She not only survived, but did so with only superficial facial cuts and some longer-term, back pain.
I can’t be too hard on a car that saved my daughter’s life.
Lol, I think I did the exact same thing with a Tucson. Similar mileage, too. Did you have the 2l or 2.4l engine? I had oil burning and reduced power. Dealer actually said they'd replace the engine... After it actually died. No shot I'm going to drive my car w/ my fam just waiting for it to die. I did absolutely love the vehicle otherwise, so that was a real bummer.
For a long time Consumer Reports has ranked cars as Japanese > American >> European, European cars have some luxury cachet but if you want a car that starts when you turn the key look elsewhere. American cars came a long way since the 1970s when they really were trash.
Consumer Reports currently has Audi and BMW ahead of any American manufacturer.
Brand average reliability is tricky though, on their 100-point scale, their top manufacturer (Subaru) has models that range from 38-98.
Looking at the model breakdown... I kinda suspect they don’t really have enough datapoints - VW’s reliability only includes 3 models (the Tiguan, ID.4 and TAOS) - Ford has a 25-point difference between the Escape and Maverick hybrids that share the same engine/powertrain (I can’t think of any reason why the Maverick would actually be notably more reliable than the Escape unless the PHEV escape is dragging down weighted reliability by that much over the mild hybrid), etc.
"European" cars are not really a category. French/Italian/Spanish cars are very different from German/Volvo, and even these groupings are a stretch. Then you have Dacia too, and I have no idea where to even put it. Plus you have some luxury British cars, which are again veery different.
In-group std is greater than between-group std.
In the USA (where Consumer Reports exists), we don’t have any French or Spanish brands. Italian brands are only exotics and couple near-luxury brands from Stellantis.
To a USAian, “European Brand” means something from Germany or Scandinavia. If you mean a Ferrari or Lamborghini, you say that name.
There's Fiat, an Italian brand that I think of as terribly downmarket. I think it's part of Stellantis and I think if you see Stellantis coming you're supposed to run, not walk away -- I guess Chrysler is still part of that, but Chrysler is also far worse than Ford and GM.
As for Ferrari and Lamborghini it doesn't matter what Consumer Reports thinks.
Fair enough but its a bit like saying American cities are very cold in winter, and by American cities I mean New York cos thats where most flights go.
Theres a lot more cities in the US and a lot more "European" cars than German/Swedish.
> Spanish cars are very different from German
The only spanish car maker is SEAT and it's part of VAG group. SEAT are more expensive than Skoda, but cheaper than Audi.
And using the country card with these automaker corporations is very tricky, because they have factories everywhere. You can buy an Audi made in Spain or a VW made in Slovakia.
>"European" cars are not really a category. /Spanish cars are very different from German/Volvo
VWAG owns the largest Spanish car maker, Seat/Cupra. 100% of cars Seat/Cupra sells are VW derivatives. Whatever you imagine the difference between Spanish cars and German cars to be, it is not real.
>French/Italian
Renault is a very different company then Stellantis (Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot).
What you should compare is the parent company making these cars.
>Plus you have some luxury British cars, which are again veery different.
Lotus is a Geely brand, just like Volvo is a Geely brand, some of their cars are on the same platform. Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot are Stellantis brands.
Pretty good case for why Consumer Reports is not very useful anymore https://youtu.be/WicesuUvTXo
The relative ranking may hold, but the problem nowadays is all cars are unreliable due to software. Sure a car letting you down because the engine is blown up is bad, but a car failing unpredictably in the middle of nowhere due to software issue a pretty serious issue to. I’m not sure Japanese are better on this.
Believe it or not, both the software and hardware on Chinese-made Teslas is rock solid. (With the notable and massive exception of Autopilot/FSD, but this is an optional feature.) The Model 3 has been ranked the most reliable EV in Australia:
https://www.shopforcars.com.au/news/most-reliable-electric-c...
However, this is not the case for Teslas manufactured in the US, which is why Tesla's global reliability ratings are mediocre at best.
It should be noted that “autopilot” is the included driver assist feature and “FSD” is the optional extra cost feature.
Toyota
If you buy a Toyota ProAce van you get a Peugeot Expert aka Citroen Jumpy/Traveller aka the respective Fiat and Opel (and Vauxhall?) branded vehicles. It's a Volkswagen Transporter-sized van, not an Eurovan/minivan that still might be sold in EU only though.
Jappanese electric cars have problems too.
> While driving on Highway 13 (Montreal), the vehicle abruptly lost all throttle response
This has happened twice with a Mk II Leaf for us. The second time the dealer charged me over $100 to say "Mēh! No idea what went wrong"
Perhaps BYD? They seem to be getting it together.
As an old and grey computer programmer I do not, absolutely do not want, a "software defined vehicle". My comrades and I are renowned for unreliable crappy consumer products, where car manufacturers in the ICE era developed remarkably reliable and performant vehicles.
I really think electric cars need to be done differently, where the drive train is not dependant on my friends who "move fast and break things". My friends like these should be nowhere near automobiles.
idk but in addition to what was listed already stay away from: Land Rover, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Fiat ... all of them leave you stranded in the middle of the road
Mercedes
And I bring you the joy of Mercedes and MS Teams:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2850680/copilot-is-coming-to...
To those downvoting my perfectly succinct answer to the question, I urge you to drive one of the newer Mercedes EVs. After my Tesla nightmare I moved on to Mercedes and it was night and day.
The EVs (from any mainstream manufacturer that began with ICE products) are all fairly immature. My AMG E53 (cabriolet) is a hybrid, and I can tolerate that. It gives me an extra 100+HP when I punch it, but I wonder how long the battery is going to last. The electric power plant adds more than 500lbs to the car, but the car still performs very well. (The car is five years old now.) I like that I can drive over 400 miles on a tank of gas, and I like that I have no trouble finding a gas station, and that it takes only a few minutes to fill the tank.
I'm looking forward to the time when an EV can give me all of these things, and I'll eagerly purchase one when that happens.
I bought this car after owning a high-end BMW. I was looking for a car that performs well, but is very reliable.
It has been a great car, and it cost only 66% of the price that Vicken paid for his Volvo EX90.
For those of us who do not want a car more expensive than our house, is Mercedes an option?
Did you look at the Volvo EX90 price range?
I googled. Starting from 81,200 USD and 85.250 EUR. I can fit my car almost 6 times in there.
Don't say "reliable", say "opportunity for enshittification".
if it has software it will be enshitted. sadly true
I was a bit surprised to see the the "software" criteria in your reply, as I'd always thought of enshittification's inevitability as a capitalist phenomenon whereby a quality brand is wrung out for near term gains by management incentivized to get their cut before riding off into the sunset.
But after reading up a bit, I've found that software platform lock-in was important in enshittification's original formulation — it's not just that quality goes to crap, but that users have nowhere else to go.
Thank you for that second paragraph. Really hate people throwing that word around without understanding what it actually means. Was about to get inflamed.
Makes you wonder how open software car platform could look like and why nobody is making one.
Probably because if you and me would write one and install it on our cars it would void all certifications and make the car not legal to drive. That doesn't mean that manufacturers could not band together and make a common OS for cars, or a company in that market could not sell its software to everybody (like MS or Google) but I believe that manufactures don't want to completely commoditize cars and go the way of gas brands or smartphones. A car is 4 wheels, steering and brakes to me, so I don't care much about what I'm driving as long as it handles well and brakes strong, but that's not the case for most people so manufacturers want to add their own bells and whistles.
That's a phenomenon that can be blamed on low-IQ or disengaged owners.
Some companies have owners that are locked in, who know where the true value of their business lies (usually this involves a high quality product), and holds the management to account to keep the golden-egg-laying goose alive.
But other companies are owned by index funds, ETFs, and/or dumb people who don't know or care how things work. These have no defense against enshittifying.
I've bought some products that are of almost egregiously high quality, and nearly 100% of the time there's family ownership, or it's still run by the founders.
> What reliable is left?
Vehicles with 7 or more years of warranty. If a brand has a hype, but short warranty like Toyota, it is only a hype.
I remember, some years back, the warranty period was actually almost inversely correlated with reliability. It seemed like the companies that were making unreliable cars were just hoping to get people onboard with long warranties. There's a great story on Reddit from years ago about the lifetime Kia warranty, and a car that went through something like 7 engines in 10 years.
I rented an Audi Q7 for a week recently. The drive quality of the car is excellent. But the software is terrible. Just getting CarPlay to work every time is a challenge. I will not be buying an Audi any time soon.
As more and more of the vehicle's experience becomes software controlled, manufacturers who don't have good software development teams are going to lose out. German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software, and they are happy to collectively develop the software [1] as opposed to seeing software as a key differentiator.
[1] https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/25/automotive-industry-lau...
Software is indeed a differentiator, as in I want as little as possible of that shit in my car. Any car where all the controls are on a giant iPad in the middle are a non-starter for me.
Physical goods companies just don't get software, and they never seem to be able to do it right. They treat firmware and software like just another line item on the BOM. Like a screw or a silicon gasket: Source it from a cheap supplier, spoon it into the product somewhere on the assembly line, and then never touch it again. As long as it meets a list of checkbox requirements, the quality doesn't matter at all. A car company that obsesses over how nicely the exterior panels fit together will, on the other hand, not even care whether icons and text are aligned on their software.
The other day I saw a meat thermometer with no readout, only an app.
No!
A good app is more expensive than a good thermometer readout, and will break much sooner.
I'll pay a premium for no-tech products.
Yup.
Case in point: any time the rear view camera comes on in a car commercial. Beatufiul car, awesome interior...potato-quality backup camera.
While you're right that car companies are not good at software, this is almost a blessing at this point. Imagine if they had the software talent of a Google or Microsoft and used it to implement the same fucking awful "enshittification" business models.
Software is not an alternative to physical controls. You don't have to copy Tesla in that regard.
Plot twist - most carmakers button implementations are no better than giant iPad. Special hell to ones making dedicated climate controls using touch surfaces.
The VW Group is putting billions into their partnership with Rivian specifically to improve the software experience (and enabling hardware). It may be the only thing that keeps Rivian alive until (if) the R2 successfully launches to the mass market.
Imagine what they could do if they put those billions into building auto control panels that had actual knobs and buttons instead of a glorified iPad. They might actually be able to create a pleasant driving experience!
>German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software
VWAG is now on attempt number two of fixing their Software problems.
They tried Cariad, the result was your experience. The next attempt is giving billions to Rivian.
If you believe that these companies do not understand how important software is you are totally delusional. Literally Billions worth of money have they spent trying to fix that.
They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software, and they don't understand and respect the different way of working that you need for software vs hardware.
I've heard somebody describe it as "they are using methods that have been known not to work for 20 years".
>They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software
But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention.
What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad, often cling to outdated methodologies and tend to create overly complex and overly useless systems. There are hundreds of examples for this, throughout European industries and governments. "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Consider also the salaries of European Software Engineers, even in the most wealthy countries, like France and Germany, it averages around 50k to 60k, it is not the highly lucrative career it is (was?) in the US.
I am a German software engineer. I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. But I don't work in automotive, where they do, or used to, overengineer things pretty badly - and in pretty silly ways, too, i.e. not usually defensible in some reasonable way. Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. But that still doesn't fix the culture. The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.
>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering.
Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess.
>Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive.
Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that is not the case, especially in automotive, where salaries are often union negotiated and Engineers are all on identical pay scales.
>The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.
I just think that there really isn't anybody else. Is there any person somewhere in the German industry who has the ability for leadership and great software expertise? The biggest Software company in Germany is SAP and surely, hiring some SAP manager would have been an even worse decision.
What you saw was just a standard mess - not over-engineering. Same thing that I often see.
Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).
>Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).
Maybe, but US people often do not understand German work culture. The Cariad CEO will have to deal with the IGM and be mindful of German labor laws and specific cultural norms.
But I do not think that you are wrong, but that the general bias to promote "one of their own" caused this.
> Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad
> "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Anecdata: in my 10+ years experience, the worst UX, UI, code and SWEs I've seen, are all German. I'm not saying there's absolutely no good ones here and there, but in general it seems the love for a very complex written/spoken language (riddled with rules and exception) and bureaucracy has translated 100% into software. The interfaces, the code and coding style most of the times give me a 1980s vibe if I'm lucky, or just scare me off altogether in most cases. The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
Many of the things which work well for developing hardware or Mechatronics work terribly for Software. Hardware development is about rigorous processes, any change to a piece of hardware requires a very complex chain of people, as the impact often is hard to predict and will require changes to many other processes, e.g. manufacturing. I do not think this is the entire explanation though.
The US Software industry has succeeded because it is very open to rapid changes, which the nature of software allows, given the right environment.
>The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
That is exactly the incompetence I am talking about. This gets extremely bad if governments are developing software solutions, where they outsource to a variety of contractors, who all are somewhat incompetent, but together manage to create a real mess. A mess so bad that every user feels the jank.
Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.
Yes, I get it - deleting 7 buttons gets you that $1M bonus - but it totally borks the system for the everyday driver, who then becomes less loyal.
At this point, there are very, VERY few companies I'm loyal to, because almost none are loyal to me - they'll all give "new users" better deals, and take advantage of any loyalty I have to gouge me and charge me more than a competitor.
>Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.
And because all critical people hate physical buttons VWAG all new models and even concept cars now come with physical buttons on the steering wheel and dedicated climate controls outside of the touchscreen? Very weird things going on, where the things which are developed are the exact opposite of what you say the critical decision makers want.
Have you actually looked at new VWAG models or their new concept cars? Because this complaint seems to exist purely in your head.
They are reverting to reason as we speak. All car manufacturers fell victim to touchscreen madness for a while, to varying degrees. A certain conservatism may have helped in the case of VW, as it does with overly aggressive styling trends.
> Volvo sadly no longer stands for Swedish quality and safety. > What you’re buying is essentially an overpriced Chinese car with Volvo stickers. > And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
I feel it's quite off-base to associate the quality of a car to a country. The quality of a car is a statistical quantity that's mostly related to a specific model of car.
There are at least 3 wrong insinuations in the above post.
1. Volvo engineering is still mostly based in Sweden. Geely has mostly not touched it. So it's still Swedish -- thus it is still Swedish quality and safety. If it has gone down, then it's Swedish quality and safety that has gone down.
2. Many Chinese cars are now high quality.
3. That countries are correlated with quality is a lazy mental shortcut. Many Mitsubishi are not high quality, despite being Japanese.
Also the Volvo EX90 (in the article) is made in Charleston SC.
Quality is not just based on the design some office workers come up with. It’s also manufacturing process, material sourcing (iron ore etc) and processing of these materials.
The list goes on. But yeah, if I look at for instance Volvo EX30 or EX40 etc, they look very ”off” somehow and doesn’t scream ”built to last” any longer.
Compared to the older XC70, 740 and so on which are built like locomotives.
I strongly believe that some countries correlate with quality (in general, and depending on the subject). It has to do with the way of working I guess. People in countries with stronger hierarchy in the workplace tend to polish away the faults and shortcomings when reporting to their superiors.
I don’t believe there’s anything strange in thinking that way. It’s as if saying the Avocados in Peru is generally better and higher quality than the Avocados produced in Spain.
Not even, BYD and other Chinese car companies make great, reliable cars. This is simply Volvo intentionally and likely knowingly cheating out as much as possible to make a quick buck, burning their brand in the process
> great, reliable cars
The quality of ride of Chinese cars is not even close to their European counterparts, children get sick even on the front row in ten minutes in a car that costs next to $60K. Their suspension is such that they do not compensate for sudden roll when one side of car hits a bump or hole.
Rolls Royce made their Phantoms to have adjustable clearance so that Chinese buyers would not suffer from bad roads of China, yet all of the buyers of Chinese cars have to suffer from roads that are not ideally paved.
> quality of ride
Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty. Especially 50k+ tier from last few years, most perform better than Euro cars in terms of noise, vibration harshness. You generally have to scrape to bottom barrel entry level 10-15k PRC cars to get bad ride experiences now. Chinese roads also great now, down to rural.
Quality's caught up since 2020s. Sure you can wait 10 years, but there's industry indicators like problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) where PRC EVs are fine / better than foreign bands (built in PRC factories. At least mechanically (power trains, batteries, chassis). Most PRC weakeness comes from stuff like infotainment, drive assist last few years because they've been iterating software a little too fast. There's also proprietary fleet data on EV taxis / rideshare that's been driven to death, and those hold up fine too.
Rolls Royce tuned their PRC cars to be EXTRA PLUSH, because PRC buyers prefers extra cloudy rides vs Euro buyers that prefers firmer / responsive, NA softer than EU, MENA somewhere between EU/NA.
> Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty.
There is nothing soft in ride of any Chinese car in my experience. These cars are in taxis here and you can experience ride in pretty much every model and brand, from basic to luxury. No Chinese car I've been driven in compensate for sudden rolls.
European cars have much softier ride than anything Chinese, even Chinese "luxury" brands sold here. As you mentioned that, then "sporty, firm and responsive" BMW 5series' are much more pleasant to be schoffered in than anything Chinese.
Chinese luxury car brand Hongqi put V6 turbocharged hybrid motors into their full sedan models [1], this is really a shame!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongqi_H9
This shows they do not understand what quality of ride is. What vibrations are, how they affect quality of ride, how electric motors exacerbate vibrations [2], how motor's torque output affect quality of ride, etc, etc.
[2] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ev-drivers-passengers-motion...
You've clearly not driven one recently. I'm shopping at the moment, and the BYDs in particular are great to drive and have an amazing fit-out. Model 3/Y are the most direct comparable on both fronts, if I'm looking to European counterparts with similar ride and fit I'm also jumping 2x in price.
I use taxis all the time. Right now less than one in ten rides is European car, they are almost all Chinese.
Also, please experience being driven in the car in addition to drive a car.
In case of being driven you are not paying attention to the road and do not know why some acceleration did happen. In this situation your brain can decide that your senses are lying to it because body is poisoned and will invoke gag reflex, which we call ride sickness.
I look into that because I have to drive a family where two members are prone to motion sickness. I will definitely not look into any electric car because of this.
I rode in a BYD 3 years ago that made me car sick. But recently rode in another, felt like a lexus. Anecdata sample size=1.
Ride sickness in electric and hybrid cars is real thing [1].
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ev-drivers-passengers-motion...
In my opinion, it is unavoidable.
Aren’t Japanese cars the gold standard of reliability? Or has something changed?
Not only that, they also have a fairly conservative approach to design that seems to keep a lot of the stupid bullshit out of their cars. I own multiple late model Japanese cars from different manufacturers and have had zero issues with them. The ADAS systems they do have, while arguably basic by 2025 standards, function flawlessly. All essential controls (including climate control) are physical.
To be honest, it has never been about pure brand. Every brand has had clunkers and has had great models.
Having said that, Toyota is known for their reliability, and Volvo (+ Polestar) was / are known for their safety.
Just to emphasize the point: Nissan is doomed because generally no one wants their cars, but they have perhaps one of the greatest bang-for-buck EVs outside of Chinese brands: the Leaf 2.
Nissan makes fantastic cars that develop a following, and then proceeds to change everything about the car that created a following in the first place. Mitsubishi seem to be learning this skill from them. Toyota still sells cars that have a direct lineage to the original model 40 years ago, and charges a fortune for them.
I have a 2022 model Leaf, the one with 230 miles range, and it's... boring in a good way. It just works. Zero problems whatsoever and zero noticeable battery degradation after about 27K miles. Only big downside is poor rapid charging, but we use ours as a city car and rarely if ever need it.
Put a CCS fast charge port and better battery cooling in this thing and it'd be the perfect boring reliable EV with physical dash controls (no touch screen BS).
That's been my experience with a 2015 Leaf. It's ugly and the range is trash, and that it. It's a dolled up golf cart but in a good way.
My girlfriend has the same car and I had about the same feeling in it - it's just a cheap Nissan that happens to be electric (and I mean that in a good way). As you said, quite good as a city car, and we even did a short road trip in it, but the lack of chargers for it does produce some range anxiety.
I want my tools to be boring, do something and do it well, and with minimum fuss.
Leaf doesn't have active cooling nor CCS... That's a big reason they have to price it like that. I'd rather take a Toyota busy forks in the current market. Chevy Equinox is pretty good bang for buck too.
I don't know about the others, but Toyota has had some issues recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klyb2VrACZc&t=47s
New cars... but a 22 year old used Toyota, like mine, seems perfectly fine.
Sure, it'll kill me because of the comparative lack of safety, but that seems like a minor sacrifice in the face of needing to deal with a new car.
It also doesn't have pillars the thickness of an elephant's legs, like all new cars, significantly less compromising to visibility all around. It also lacks the now ubiquitous square and raised bonnet.
If you are of a certain age, have the ready cash and if new cars are truly safer than old cars, then do society a favor and buy the new car. It’s cheaper for society to make a new car that keeps the aging driver, passengers and other drivers and pedestrians safe, than to pay to fix even one broken old person.
I’ve got a 2025 sedan with all the newest safety features, and what you lose in visibility you more than gain in general situational awareness, especially with aging eyes, ears, etc.. Managing display and alarm complexities is the challenge, though, since the aging population also have issues there. A driving training simulator at the dealership for these new sedans for the elderly would be a big help, since many of the safety options are only active in a vehicle under motion. The temptation for the aged is just to shut these confusing options off as too complex, thus losing the safety advantage.
Was told by a mechanic a few months back that continuously-variable transmissions are standard in gas cars now, but have reliability problems. Old-tech automatics can (could?) still be had from Toyota and Mazda.
E-CVTs are extremely reliable and are different from CVTs (CVTs use a belt attached to 2 cones, E-CVTs are just a single planetary gear set), but a lot of car guys and even some mechanics don't realize they're completely different.
Note that the eCVT that Toyota/Ford (and soon Mazda) use in their hybrids is mechanically entirely different from classic CVTs.
Note that not all Ford hybrids are eCVTs. Hybrid Explorers don't have eCVTs, for example.
But Mavericks and some of their newer hybrids are eCVTs.
Nah only Subaru and nisssan. 10 speed automatics are most common.
Most Japanese manufacturers are moving pretty heavily to CVTs. (And Americans have a smattering of them across their lines.)
Subarus have chain-based CVTs which are presumably better than usual belt-based ones.
> Buy German cars
Take this with a grain of salt (since it's not first hand experience), but I have heard from friends that the quality of German cars has degraded significantly
> And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
I own a 2020 BMW with an electronic gearbox, which broke at around 80k km just a couple of months after the warranty expired (yeah I know!). It was a bit of a headache going back and forth with BMW to request a free repair. Fortunately, the headquarters agreed to cover the cost, and they installed a refurbished electronic gearbox. I was quite relieved that I didn’t have to pay about €10K out of pocket!
All that to say that I wouldn’t call BMW particularly reliable in terms of quality these days, but their customer support was decent, at least in my case.
I don’t own one, but Volvo certainly still stands for safety. The XC90 (the non-fully electric version of this car) had the most amazing safety record in the UK I’ve ever heard of. For the first 10 years or so it was in service no driver or passenger was killed in an XC90 in any accident in the UK.
It’s actually better than I thought. No fatalities recorded in the UK sincevlaunch in 2004 to at least 2018. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volvo/xc90/103233/no-fatalitie...
That stat is all the more impressive because it’s also a very common car, (at least as far as expensive cars go), so in my area for example I see at least 10 of them parked on the streets on my daily 30min walk in London.
If I was buying new, I'd look for a Japanese car (Toyota, Honda, Subaru). The old volvo 240s are still around though.
I was going to create a website just like this but for my Audi Q5. Least reliable car I ever owned. It’s been in the shop about 15 times in 2 years. I finally gave up. It still has a few unsolved issues but I just don’t care. I’ll be trading it in later this year and … Never another Audi again.
Or just buy a Zeekr (if you want a non-Elon EV) - a much more technically impressive and better looking car than the Volvo or Tesla and it was designed in Europe:
That touch screen-only with the different modes of activation is my nightmare and literally giving me anxiety watching that showcase if that's to be the future of auto driving.
Interestingly, Zeeker is owned by the same Chinese parent company as Volvo, Geely auto.
Yeah, might as well get the real thing. That model has great reviews. Wish it were available in the US.
Did we forget about the emissions cheating already? Volkswagen is on my blacklist.
> Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
German cars, as a rule, are made with complete disregard for the people who will have to work on them. They are reliable while meticulously maintained and before anything even remotely important break. Then they become a nightmare.
> And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars
And I'm saying _this_ as a Swede, because apparently it matters: what cars are most reliable is publicly available information, and they're all from Asia. My personal favorite is Toyota.
I assume you're referring to Länsförsäkringars list of most reliable cars (in terms of engine/mechanical fault).
While it's true that it's mainly asian/Japanese cars that are least reported, that doesn't make them the most reliable in general.
Mazdas and Toyotas tend to rust off in our nordic weather way faster than german brands or older Volvos. Sure, the engine might still run but what difference does it make if it's all become a piece of rust that is ready to fall apart within ten years.
I'm not, and just saying that "Mazdas and Toyotas tend to rust" is an extreme generalization (of which you provide no source).
I drive a chinese EV and its quality is far beyond anything I could get from european builders. That’s definitely not the source of the problem for Volvo.
This being downvoted only reflects how hard it is for us in the west to accept the current state of things. I suggest visiting the nearest Nio or Zeekr store for a little reality shock.
Meanwhile they praise Polestar, new Mini EVs, Smart, Volvo and others that are also being produced in joint ventures with Chinese manufacturers but don’t carry a chinese brand.
Reliable (consistent) quality, yes. Quality? Debatable. But it definitely keeps driving, no dangerous situations so far.
I’m already boycotting VW for emissions-fraud, Tesla for Nazi-salutes… gonna run out of car brands at this rate
Signal that virtue boy!
I was being sarcastic - and thought you didn’t realise - but then what if you’re also being sarcastic and I don’t realise?
i agree on that emission-fraud. but, haha, you know there are loads of videos of your favorite blue colored ones doing the same salute? if that is what keeps you spinning you ran out of car brands long time ago...
Please, post links to videos of those, not still frames. I've seen much shorter and punchier rebuttals to this claim, but this is what I found just now:
Musk slapped his chest and quickly snapped his arm straight. Booker gently reached out, does a little dip, crosses both hands across his chest.
But, ok, there are some similarities. Where are the other "loads of videos of your favorite blue colored ones doing the same salute?"
Link one.
No longer, as of when?
I had a 1987 Volvo 760 in the nineties.
It was an unmitigated piece of shit.
> Buy German cars
VW ID.4 owner here. The car is pretty good mechanically, but the software is garbage, or more specifically hot dumpster fire.
ID.7 owner here. Car is good, software is good. Window buttons are questionable.
> Window buttons are questionable
How questionable?
In my ID.4 pressing both buttons with windows half-open will sometimes close both windows and sometimes one window will go up and the other down. Does that qualify as "questionable"? :-)
> software is good
You mean your parking cameras always turn on when needed and you don't get a black screen where the camera image should be about 30% of the time? Can the car recognize two drivers by keyfob and not mix up their settings? Does it not prompt you to "log in" (confirm the driver) every time you start it? Is anything except the background color tied to the whole login thing (like, for example, seat settings)?
My bar is pretty low here after the ID.4 hot garbage software.
> Volvo sadly no longer stands for Swedish quality and safety.
which Swedish or EU companies do?
not a trick question - I'm genuinely baffled by systematic QA neglect in most EU based companies (which are still better than much US companies) .
In the US, I’ve seen enough problems on VW cars that I won’t make the same conclusion.
US driving culture-wise, I’ve seen Audi and Mercedes drivers adopt the same brain-dead behaviors BMW drivers have that I wouldn’t want to be associated with them either.
If I were to buy a new car today, it would be a Toyota or a Honda, maybe a Hyundai.
I owned a brand new 2024 Audi A6 and the infotainment system, general software, and driver assist functionality was absolutely atrocious to the point of rendering the car inoperable from time to time. Audi refused to acknowledge there was an issue so I sold it privately.
Avoid like the absolute plague.
I want to buy European but Bosh is so disappointing. They lock everything so you can't change anything on your EV by yourself. I hate that.
Insane that Volvo doesn't just replace the car. The cost is trivial compared to the brand damage here. The complaint is so well documented and the customer is not being a jerk at all; not sure what Volvo's logic is.
Well if you don't replace the car you save 150K. But you lose a few million, let's say.
Those few million are invisible, the 150K you see right now and you know, for sure, you're saving it. Incidentally, this is how we got into this quality mess. Cutting quality seems like free money... except that it's not, it's just that nobody bothers to measure the opportunity cost.
And then one day you wake up and you're Chrysler, selling piece of shit vehicles for wayyy more than they're worth. And now your brand is worthless. But, at least you saved a few bucks ;P
They would need to replace all faulty cars after that. They want to avoid that.
They'll probably agree on a settlement where they don't admit any wrongdoing and give him a decent payout, but require him to take down the site and sign an NDA or something. So they don't necessarily need to replace all of them after that
If all he wants is a refund, that should do it. But if he's more interested in warning the world, hopefully he sticks to his guns and makes them give a straight up refund
> A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
- Fight Club
Ah you might be right. But:
1. If they really have so many faulty cars on the road that's a serious hazard and any accidents where people die may end up destroying Volvo entirely because of negligence.
2. An economically reasonable answer might be refund the guy making the complaint and ofter all other owners $10k credit towards your next Volvo purchase or free 3 years of maintenance and service. Something like this might be enough to stem the bleeding while protecting the brand.
I had an ex90 on pre-order for a long time, placed it within the first ~30 days of it being open.
It looked to be (and is!) an absolutely beautiful vehicle and also seemed to be making choices in the hardware (lidar) that I hoped, would, eventually deliver a combination of safety and self-driving capabilities that would be unmatched. I was willing to pay a premium and knew that it would take some time for the self-driving to come to fruition, but figured it would be a capable vehicle until that point in time.
But dang, what a botched launch. Not only were there all these issues, which are insane to me that Volvo didn't have more people in social media / subreddit, but also from a financial perspective the car is just insanely hard to get into. Lease terms were absolutely terrible.
I ended up getting a Hyuandai Ioniq 9 and am really glad I went that direction. Yeah, it doesn't offer as much as a Tesla in terms of FSD, but it also has better build quality and interior quality nearly matching the Volvo. I like the styling (but I know some do not), and it has actual physical controls for the stuff I care about and the best heads up display I have used (favorite feature: you get photos of incoming caller). NACS is also great... but I can't bring myself to take 2 spots yet at superchargers.
Funny that many say the Ioniq 9 looks like an older Volvo. I guess you really like Volvo!
Jokes aside, I would love the Ioniq 9, I think it looks much better than the EV9, or even EX90 which I find old looking.
The best cars were built between 2000 and 2010. Pretty much the pinnacle of the internal combustion engine without all the millions of lines of buggy code that apparently no longer allow you to open your car freely.
In ~2005 I worked with a world-renowned expert on industrial automation and computer control of machines. He drove a 1989 Mercedes 300 sedan with a manual transmission, which he claimed was the last car made with no software in it at all. These two facts are not un-related.
By the 80s electronics were common with fuel injection, but I consider them more like factory controllers than what we call a computer. They're little 8080 variants running closed loops and activating or deactivating output pins
pre 1997/8 Dodge 2500/3500 diesel trucks have mechanical engines in them. Other than the starter you really only need one other wire... goes to the shut off solenoid.
One of my cars is a 2011 Volvo XC90 with ~250K miles on it and I plan to drive into the ground. It's definitely the tail end of that sweet spot and it's quite surprising that it's (technologically) as simple as it is. It has a basic AWD system and only a simple cruise control system but it's the perfect feature set and I use it 80% of the time I'm driving. (I've driven late model rentals which have "smart cruise control" systems and find their "corrections" very unnerving.) For A/V, it doesn't have a backup camera (admittedly kind of a bummer), any LCD screens or touch screens and it doesn't even have Bluetooth for auxiliary audio input. The keys and fobs are about the only aspect of it that I'd say are over-complicated, as it's never had a working fob since I've owned it and getting one is prohibitively expensive ($500+).
That all being said, it's (probably?) not spying on me and isn't likely to do anything unexpected and weird on the highway like the post mentions. I can also totally work on it myself or get my local mechanic to. Although, unsurprisingly, parts are hard to find and more expensive than they are for my Honda.
I've taken it into the Volvo dealership for service on a few occasions and they legitimately laugh at me. ("How many miles are you looking to put on this thing?") I trust their technicians and am willing to pay for certain jobs and diagnoses (probably their most valuable offering) but their service and salespeople look down their noses at me and it's unpleasant. As others have said, Volvo was absolutely a great car company in the past but it doesn't seem to one anymore. Despite how much I like my car, I can't imagine buying one of their modern, tech-centric models -- in part because of posts like this one.
Yep. Many of them are still good and are on the road even with 100,000s of miles on them. Best car I had was a 2007 Vauxhall Astra. Did about 150,000 miles (and I really ragged it). Still on the road apparently. The 2012 Vauxhall Insignia I have isn't great and I regret selling the Astra. Will be selling that car soon.
meh, not for all brands. current BMWs are light years more reliable than 2000-2010 models
New cars are a fool’s game for most people, imho. Unless you just insist on having the newest thing, they rarely make sense. Couple that with the relentless electronic gadgetry and phone-home surveillance and I may never own a car produced after ~2020. Our current stable:
2007 Mazdaspeed 3, just keeps going. All buttons, no screens.
2016 Porsche Cayman, one small multifunction screen, display only, no touch. Buttons for the very few “features” present on the car.
2016 Ford Transit Connect. 200k miles. Just goes. One small screen, doesn’t interfere with anything critical.
This is just a silly statement. Your 2007, 2016, and 2016 vehicles were all new cars in 2007, 2016, and 2016.
There are plenty of 2020-era cars that are, so far, remarkably reliable and cheap to maintain and repair. It's simply that Volvo and Polestar are quite bad at making vehicles.
To clarify, I was making two independent points and didn’t do a good job of separating them. These being:
1. It frequently makes sense to buy older cars for several reasons (cost, common problems being recognized and understood).
2. I’m not interested in anything after ~2020 or so, not because they aren’t built well, but because they include too many “features” that I refuse to own. Two-way telemetry, that sort of thing.
Sure but if they bought those cars in 2010 and 2019, then there would've been plenty of time for quality issues to show up in those models.
And plenty of time spent in dealerships waiting for recalls or keeping the service record pristine
> New cars are a fool’s game for most people, imho.
I’d have agreed with you in the past, but I just bought a new car for the first time. I wanted a compact pickup - there were basically none produced for a decade from 2012-2022 - the ones from before this gap are questionable safety-wise, and now either are falling apart from rust, or going for a hefty premium because there aren’t many enthusiast-maintained rust-free models for sale. The post 2022 ones for sale just don’t have enough of a discount off new models to be worth buying unless.
Yes, anecdata from me as well, but the larger issue seems to be cars that run critical functions through the media or entertainment system only. My neighbor had a hybrid Volvo that was towed to the dealership multiple times because the car wouldn’t start when the media center froze. It was always fixed for free but ultimately they decided to sell it as it wasn’t worth the hassle.
I'm pretty excited about the Slate, bezo's car startup. No built in UI, bring your own device, including screens and sound. Potentially avoids all the overstuffed software issues in modern vehicles
The Cayman you mention has a resistive touchscreen, but to your point, everything that needs a physical control has a physical control.
These were global-maximum designs, it's all downhill from here.
Are you sure? It’s a small screen, controlled by a stalk on the right side of the steering column. It has never occurred to me that touching it might do something, but now I’ll have to be sure.
Also, note that this is a base model, with various “enhancements” added later, so it may be lacking certain (all) options.
Pretty sure they all had the touchscreen ('13 981BS here.) The screen is usually used for nav, Sport Chrono, and other bells and whistles, but even with the standard audio system it should let you use the screen to adjust the tone controls, radio stations, and stuff like that. The CAR button should also bring up a menu with various settings.
The idea behind the stalk is more to let you control the instrument-panel display if you don't have the multifunction wheel controls.
I have a Mr12Volt CarPlay adapter in mine that works nicely, although capacitive multitouch would be a lot better for that. Key point of course is that none of this gadgetry is actually required when driving. They will take this car when they pry my skeletal fingers off the buttons.
I’m just happier and happier with my ‘dumb’ car.
It has physical buttons for the aircon.
No wifi = no speakers listening to me and selling my personal data (yep that’s a thing)
I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal.
It’s pretty cheap to run because I hardly drive anywhere anyway.
But when I do I just buy this stuff called ‘petrol’ that’s all around the place and takes like 30 seconds.
I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning.
> the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning.
The environmental cost of producing an electric car happens once. But driving a car is an ongoing environmental insult. This is an apples/oranges comparison unless you integrate the driving damage over time.
This analysis suggests EVs are overall a win for the environment after 5 years of ownership, assuming your electricity comes from coal. If it comes from hydro or renewable sources, it's more like one year.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d...
Ive driven 5000 miles since I bought the car as a panic purchase at the start of lockdown.
So according to that article it’d take 13.5 years of driving an electric car to pay it back.
You let me know an electric car that lasts 13.5 years and I’ll head on down to the dealership.
Otherwise I will wait out the remaining 8.5 years as best I can
Depends on where you are, but I think you have the wrong stats, unless you are in a place where all your electricity is from coal (pretty rare). Otherwise, for an average US mix, you only have to go another 3k miles or so to breakeven.
I think we are comparing different things here - I am talking about KEEPING a petrol car vs BUYING an electric car.
The stats from that article are about buying vs buying.
The cost of making a car are huge - something like 20 tonnes of c02. Vs my running cost of about 250kg per year.
If I BUY a new car it will of course be electric. But hopefully dumb. And definitely not a Volvo.
Oh, I see. Your 5000 mile car is petrol. FWIW I think the math still works to get a new EV, because it isn't like you are going to toss away the current car, but sell it to someone used. I think. It's tricky to work through.
Plus, I'm pretty sure EVs will easily last 13+ years, although we have few examples, but EVs are way less complex so they should generally last longer. Even batteries seem to be doing great at 10+ years.
> You let me know an electric car that lasts 13.5 years and I’ll head on down to the dealership.
What electric car won't? There are still 2010 Nissan Leafs on the road, and v1 Nissan Leafs had horrible battery lifetimes, lasting less than 100,000 miles. OTOH there are several Tesla's that have gone >500,000 miles on a single battery.
If you don't agree it's apples and oranges, go buy a 13 year old Leaf for ~$3000. Unless you have a narrow definition of 'lasts' it checks everything you need.
Unfortunately I have a narrow definition of a car that’s big enough for a family of four, and the leaf is not!
It doesn't take much driving for a new EV to balance out the environmental cost of harvesting, shipping, pumping, and burning all that petrol. As I understand it, about 20k km or 15k miles, on average.
This is comparing BUYING a new gas car to BUYING a new electric car.
I already have the gas car from 8 years ago.
From what I can tell keeping this is way better than buying any new car - of course if I do buy a new one it’ll be electric. But keeping an existing car uses way less co2 than buying a new one.
The markets for EVs and gas cars are fairly established, so your personal choice to keep fixing your car vs selling it to someone else who will fix it instead doesn't have a net change on the environment. Nor does your choice to buy a new car or a used car.
The only thing that matters, really, is whether you are personally supporting the oil market or the electric market, how much, whether electric generation in your area has a good mix of green sources, and your support for political willingness to embrace policy that identifies and prices-in the side-effects on the environment, such as eliminating subsidies for oil companies. It all boils down to your willingness to put your money where your beliefs are, which for some people is very hard to do, for some people is not very hard to do, and for some people the environment just doesn't factor into their decision making at all. Tragedy of the commons, or will enough people actually care? Those who have the means and the awareness, definitely should.
If I sell it to someone else, they will probably drive 10X-20X more than me.
My car mostly just sits there.
The most environmentally friendly car is a stationary car.
You cited fill time as a reason to keep your petrol car. Yet you claim you don't drive very much.
I think we're not talking about cars any more. I think we're talking about a security blanket.
It is still less environmental damage to keep an old vehicle on the road and not create a new one. Some cars can literally last forever (these models are well known) if they are looked after.
The scrap yards are btw filling up with modern cars quite quickly because people cannot afford to repair new cars, or the cars are uneconomical to repair even after minor collisions. Whereas a lot of old cars (pre-2010) can be fixed on your driveway with easily affordable tools.
”I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal.”
Having to press a button on the fob for it to transmit a code key via radio does not mean that the key cannot be captured with an SDR by someone close by.
Only a monotonic code as a part of the key can prevent replay attacks, and only proper encryption can hinder the code from being totally cracked.
> I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning.
Citation very much needed.
Electric cars are still cars, and therefore terrible for the environment, but they do emit significantly less pollution over their lives and require a lot less oil to operate.
It’s not hard to estimate. The car is a sunk cost from 8 years ago.
I drive about 1000 miles a year. That’s about 250kg of co2 a year.
A new car uses something like 20 tonnes of co2 to make it.
So that’s 80 years of driving for me.
Obviously if I BUY a new car, it’ll be electric (but hopefully someone will have made a dumb electric car by then)
I had a horrible experience with my XC90 plug in hybrid. It took months of back and forth with the dealership and thousands of dollars to find out that it's dangerous behavior (refusing to stop without flooring the break with all my might) was due to a wire harness a critter had chewed on. Very similar response from Volvo in my case. No accountability and very low competence. Avoid Volvo.
I really want to like volvo, especially their plugin hybrids, but their bad reliability of late is a dealbreaker. No way I'm wasting my life in mechanic hell.
I'm patiently looking to upgrade from my great 2018 subaru forester xt touring, but nothing new seems much better.
Volvo hasn’t been a reliable brand since ~2000 when it was sold to Ford. Even less reliable when it was sold to Geely.
They’ve essentially skated by on brand recognition earned decades ago.
FWIW I've had a 2006 S40 for the past 10 years and found it very reliable. But can't speak for their models since then
Had a 2006 or so XC90, everything was great. Now driving a 2016 XC90, had one issue with the engine cooling, was repaired in a day, 0 issues otherwise.
Engine cooling issue is a major flaw. Sold my Toyota with 300k miles on it - never a single mechanical issue other than regular wear and tear.
How do you distinguish what’s “regular wear and tear”?
Genuinely curious, I recently sold my 14 year-old Ford Fiesta, and could arguably say the same thing, but I could imagine some people disagreeing.
I had one of the first newly redesigned Volvos after the Ford acquisition, an S80 T6, either the first or second year released in the US. It was a fantastic car - extremely comfortable, fast, and analog controls for everything.
After five or six years it spent more time being repaired than not, and I sold it. It was one of the few times where having an extended warranty paid off. Haven't really considered a Volvo since.
I was so excited to get my S60 PHEV. Mechanically it is an amazing machine, great handling, great power, I rarely have to put gas in it. BUT. It is a nightmare with the technology.
Like most new cars, everything is tied into the center display/computer. It will crash while driving, which will remove all sound from your car, and I don't mean just the radio/spotify/whatever. You can be in mid-turn with your turn signal on and then just absolute quiet. It is so off-putting. Your blinker stops, you can't really tell your engine is on, and every screen just goes black. Thankfully I don't have a pure electric, so I my car still physically moves, but I really can't believe I haven't gotten in an accident when my screen crashes.
Thankfully I leased this vehicle, and I'm almost done with it, I honestly can't wait to turn it in.
Pure electrics also work when the screen crashes. My Tesla behaves almost exactly as you describe. When the screen crashes / reboots, you loose all displays, all sound, signals, etc. But the car still drives.
I have a rock-solid but aging Kia niro phev and I love it.
I’m thinking of turning it in for an updated model, but the updated model has displays instead of actual gauges and indicator lights like the older niro, and that just makes my skin crawl. It should be damn near impossible for the gauges and indicators to blink out of existence, and reassurance about nothing-but-screens has not been forthcoming.
Yeah, had my XC90's center console crash/reboot in the middle of a highway drive, very disorienting and unnerving.
I would hope that the center control computer is isolated from the actual drive computer in all these cars.
Doesn’t Canada have a lemon law? Most US states have a law that says if you have to bring a new car in 3 times for the same issue in the first X months of ownership, that they have to accept a return and refund you, or give you a new one.
Canada doesn't have specific "lemon laws" like the US - instead, consumers must rely on provincial consumer protection acts, manufacturer warranties, or the Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Plan (CAMVAP) for resolving persistent vehicle defects.
No, Quebec does but other provinces just rely on standard consumer protection laws. At least the last time I looked into it.
I think some provinces have some additional vehicle-specific laws, but no comprehensive "lemon law" as such.
This person is in Quebec (or seems to be - highway 13 is in Montreal and the car was bought in the city of Mount Royal which is a suburb of Montreal (city status nitpicks notwithstanding, it’s unequivocally in Quebec). )
Good catch, I didn't put 2 and 2 together. I'm not positive what the eligibility requirements are to invoke it. Perhaps that's what they retained the lawyer for.
The open secret to EV ownership is to lease. This effectively mitigates depreciation and forces a dealership to own any problems (sooner rather than later).
The open secret to EV ownership is to buy after the lease. The depreciation is insane, why pay to rent the car for three years when you can buy it outright after the lease return for a fraction of the cost? EVs with active cooling systems last just about forever but people are still "oh no the battery".
(Still driving my 2012 EV - not a typo - and got a can't-miss off-lease CPO deal on a "new" 2022 this year.)
High mileage EV's are really cheap right now. Buyers think they'll have to spend a fortune to replace the battery when in reality those batteries still have lots of miles left in them. People are picking up 150,000 mile model 3's for $10K, and that car could be good for another 150,000 miles.
Other than some squeaks and creeks, my 2018 model 3 is working fine with 160,000. I don't plan on replacing it anytime soon.
Battery has lost ~10% max capacity over the years.
> The open secret to EV ownership is to buy after the lease.
How do you dig into this responsibly?
I really don't want to be buying a new car right now as the ICE ones all seem to be expensive trash but the EVs are changing so quickly that it isn't worth it.
My Chevy Volt is beginning to show its age, but you will pry it from my cold, dead hands at this point.
Three years is plenty of time to assess the reliability of a make and model - and also to get early issues resolved. Take a look at the forums.
As the owner of both a 2012 BEV and a 2014 PHEV (in addition to my "new" 2022), all of which are in perfect mechanical condition, it's tough to look at BEV technology as something that will "greatly improve".
Is my 2022 BEV way better than my 2012? Sure, but it's an entire decade removed (my 2012 is looking like... well, whatever the dog did to it). Is it worse than current 2025/26 BEVs? No, not by much at all.
Keep on rockin' with the Volt until your dog rips up the upholstery. There'll be a three year old off-lease BEV or PHEV waiting for you at a shocking low price when it's time.
This is compounded by the fact that EV tech is rapidly improving, fueling depreciation. It's like personal computers in the 90's/00's.
Compare to gas cars which is a very mature technology, and really only perks and features get updated.
Are they rapidly improving though?
Sure, other companies are making an effort to catch up with Tesla on autonomous driving, but range/speed/price are largely stagnant.
Mostly, it looks like every company (in the US/EU)is in shambles releasing half baked EVs hoping no one will notice that their hardware company is terrible at software.
The combination of range, (charging) speed, and price have all greatly improved since 2020. The next five years look promising too, with solid state batteries and smaller/lighter motors set to hit the market.
Absolute, resolute "no" to "autonomous driving". Not unless it is 100% reliable, and it will never be with current technology.
The development of autonomous driving has hit diminishing returns, and while "mostly reliable" is OK for a Taxi fleet with expensive experts on call 24/7, I do not want the deadly half-arsed crap from Tesla.
Not really. Battery density and cost has been improving steadily for a decade. Most manufacturers are installing heat pumps now. The speed of DC fast charging is inconsistent between OEMs, but that's still a factor of infrastructure too. Vehicle to home and Integrated trip planning with battery charging are the biggest areas of improvement for most OEMs.
Leasing will require you to carry comprehensive and collision insurance. With a fully owned car like mine, I carry only the liability insurance. This in practice more than halves my insurance premium payments. The reduction in insurance premium more than offsets any financial benefit of a lease with an artificially high residual value. (Leases are only beneficial because the residual value does not match reality.)
Interestingly, in the UK, comprehensive insurance is now generally cheaper than "third party only" or "third party, fire & theft" cover
The reason is because the insurance companies want you to care about the car as an asset, on the basis that statistically they are driven more carefully (and therefore cause less third party property damage, bodily injury, etc.)
I don't know about the UK but comprehensive insurance here means fire and theft.
That works if you want an EV just because you prefer to drive an EV, but makes it basically impossible to save money compared to buying an ICEV, you’ll never pay off the car, and you can’t put enough mileage on a lease to break even with fuel costs.
and mitigates technological risk, like if Toyota makes good on those solid state battery claims, Tesla might be screwed
I have an XC90 but the hybrid that is not plug in. I can say that the software is complete trash. The screen often goes black. I’ve had to replace twice parts that made the entertainment system dead. My second car is a model Y and now I dread driving the Volvo. It’s bigger so we use it to go to the cottage but other than that, I wish I had something different.
I wouldn’t buy Tesla again but I’ve never experienced software issues in mine. Although some of the menus could be re-arranged for clarity, it’s otherwise clear and responsive. The app is great and the third party apps are even better. I’ve not heard positive things from VW or MG owners in terms of software either. Is there any good alternative to Tesla in this domain?
I was recently shopping for a new car and looked at Volvo. We've had a Model Y for a few years now and when the Volvo salesperson proudly showed us how the truck height could be set by holding the button, I asked "is that a global setting or does it remember where it is when you set the height?"
The salesperson looked at me like I was crazy and confirmed it was global (the Y remembers what the proper height is at various locations using the GPS). It's frustrating to me that Teslas have fit and finish issues (though they get better) and there are some parts of it that I think are made cheaply (paint for example), but the software on the Tesla is miles ahead of anything else.
You probably meant trunk (aka tailgate) height?
Model Y doesn't have adjustable suspension lol.
Tesla software in theory was generally pretty class leading. Certainly some downsides with their homegrown infotainment vs a car with Carplay/Android Auto though.
What I did not enjoy when I was one was the number of functions that are buttonless and require touchscreen UI. Additionally every 1-2 years they'd do a major version upgrade that moved said functions somewhere around the screen, sometimes into a sub-menu.
So I couldn't do stuff by touch without looking, and they'd periodically break my quick glance muscle memory with releases. Stuff like - adjust air vents, adjust wiper settings, front/rear defrost.
VW software is a monstrosity from everything I've heard.
BMW has struck a decent balance of features, reliability, and having BUTTONS. I also have a HUD in mine and it's nice having instrument cluster display plus HUD to avoid really having to look away from the road at all. The number of cars that require glancing at the central touchscreen for lots of stuff is nuts, and a fad I hope fades away.
I believe that BMW group uses Flutter/Dart. Interesting that there seems little complaint about their software here.
Less bells & whistles than Tesla tries to accomplish, but it just works. Which is.. what I want in my car. Infotainment has native XM radio & Spotify, plus CarPlay & Android Auto.
Less updates, and sometimes they don't quite work OTA, but I don't really care.
When I had a Tesla, everything was on the touchscreen including the speedometer and various critical controls, and I had 2-3 full reboot black screen while driving incidents of the system.
Was it neat that Tesla shipped new features regularly, sure. Were most of them half baked (summon) or stupid (farts, Netflix).. yes. The incremental "oh neat" for me was outweighed by various driver critical touchscreen-only controls moving around the screen release to release.
On my BMW I think the infotainment may have rebooted on me maybe once, but it has an independent dashboard instrument cluster screen & HUD which were not impacted.
And the BMW has way way more buttons so I do not have to care about the screen, including on the steering wheel and controls on the drivers right side arm rest. So again I can drive without distractions.
The other thing worth mentioning is the driver assist system that Tesla is supposed to lead on but.. eh, not really. After 4 years of Tesla Autopilot releases constantly changing behavior, frequently not for the better, it was nice to have a predictable ADAS system from BMW.
While Tesla pumps will pile on about how FSD is not AP and 2022 is not 2025, I just do not buy anything they or the company says after 4 years of daily experience with the product. A product that mostly works most of the time but then has unpredictable behavior and erratic regressions is not helpful.
I'll never buy anything other than Tesla (mainly for FSD) but some of the software can use some work. Apple Music sometimes can't connect, it saturates your internet uploading telemetry if you let it, and probably the worst thing is that the maps don't cache. Kind of awkward to have a robust off-roading vehicle with unusable maps when you actually go off-roading.
I'd guess Rivian SW is good, because Volkswagen's SW got so bad they hired Rivian to rewrite it for them. (That contract is the only thing keeping Rivian afloat right now.)
Rivian software is pretty meh. I've never had a safety critical failure while driving, but have had multiple other issues including being trapped in the car unable to exit until after a reboot. Worse -- rivian has no mechanism for reporting software issues. If you don't want a service appointment (which is available in 3 months!) then don't bother reporting it.
Wow. They don't have mechanical exit overrides? Teslas do (although they're hard to find for the back seat passengers).
I don't know if I can ever buy a non-Tesla car again (unless its a truck).
I'll check out Rivian next time though, as those look pretty damn good. Like you, I don't know of any other brands that are competitive enough for me. I want to like other car UX's but once you have a smooth UX its hard to go back to sluggish ones.
Software-wise, there is not. Their software is years ahead of the industry in pretty-much all dimensions.
Rivian is the closest next-best option, but loads of people have complained about bugs in their software.
The Rivian is nice in terms of software. Although it also doesn't support CarPlay just like the Tesla.
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> inferior products
That’s just, like, your opinion, man
> You just don’t hear about the other ones
If we’re not hearing about them, they must be doing a great job suppressing their inner white supremacist. Keep it up guys!
Whether or not that is true (I suspect you just made that up), no other businessman alive in America has made politics such a part of their personal brand.
> You just don’t hear about the other ones.
That is possible, yes. I think it is a fair point.
But I also understand that people want to somehow publicly show their opinions about Elon Musk. Or others.
For some, a public social media post is enough. Others want to do so with their wallet. Which, unlike a typical person's social media post, has the potential of catching, albeit indirectly, Elon Musk's attention. Which is their goal.
So I would not dismiss or make fun of the people who want to do it this way. I would not call it "virtue signaling" either if it is done with a genuine goal to publicly point out that some of Elon Musk's opinions are problematic or even dangerous.
These people are most likely not doing it because they want to "look like" they have a problem with such opinions. They do it because they genuinely believe that such opinions are harmful.
I’m kind of pointing out the hypocrisy in that if you’re not buying a Tesla because of Elon, then I’d hope you’re also boycotting all Israeli products, because you know, a little thing called a genocide is happening. If not, then I find it weird and I’m calling it out.
It might not be hypocritical. People do not have the mental capacity to follow and react to every crisis everywhere with the same level of engagement. They typically react more to the topics which they can closely relate to because they are part of their daily lives.
People in the US drive cars. And they follow the US politics. So it is in my opinion only natural that their reaction to issues concerning cars and the US politics would be more on their radar when it comes to coming up with public and loud reactions.
Does that mean that they do not care about e.g. the war in Gaza? Absolutely not. If asked, they will probably give a very critical opinion about it. But they are not out protesting for it to stop every week because it does not concern them directly. It is not hypocrisy, in my opinion, it is just natural selection of what is more and what is less important in a daily life of an individual.
It's one thing to have terrible political views. It's quite another to join the government and lead a crusade to (illegally?) slash and burn government agencies.
And while it's not ok to have terrible views, I can at least summon a token minimal level of respect for someone who keeps quiet about them, vs. someone who needs to yell them over and over, as loud as possible, for everyone to hear.
If you're selling cars at that price tier ($150K CAD / $110K USD), you'd better be backing it with top-tier service.
When I saw the price, I thought it was a typo. Volvos aren't the cheapest cars but they're not six figure cars either.
The base price (USD) is 81K - after clicking on every single option, I managed to bump it to 105K.
Exactly my thoughts. 110k is porsche prices. I guess Volvo realized the upper-middle class car market is unsaturated.
lol i converted from CAD to USD, so the extra $5K is just the being in canada tax i guess.
I have a 2024 Volvo EX30, driven it about 11,000km. It uses the same computer system platform as the EX90 and while it's not fantastic (my previous Tesla is superior), it's better than most EVs I've driven and hasn't given me any problems. I love the car, so it's a shame the more expensive and "luxury" EX90 is plagued by these issues.
That said, Volvo Canada really needs to lift its game and just give the guy a new car already. Hope the bad PR and lawsuit gets Volvo to realise their mistake, apologise and refund him.
I have the exact same experience with an EX30. Their entire line of full EVs is a disaster. I will never buy a Volvo again.
I own an XC40 BEV (now renamed EX40) and it's a much better car. The SPA platform was pretty mature by that point.
I sat in an EX90 demonstrator a year ago at the dealer and was told not to touch anything inside the cabin. The car wasn't ready back then and, from reading owners forums now, it's still not fully baked.
The Polestar 2/EX40 probably have the most mature software of that lineup. Not without issues (and certainly underpowered pre-‘24), but relatively stable by comparison.
I don’t understand the logic of having each Polestar model running a unique software stack rather than progressively improving one system across all models - but must be a downstream impact of the fractured Geely badges.
Also the Volvo C40 (same platform). I've been driving it since January and other than the software being slow to start up when it goes into sleep mode, it's been stable.
They did recently issue a software recall for the backup camera, so now when the backup camera crashes it goes into 360 camera mode instead of just a black screen.
Overall I'm happy with this car though and would recommend it.
I haven't upgraded the firmware since 2.14.3 and it's been just fine. And probably fewer headaches than the owners that have been keeping up to date.
I’ve been eyeing the CPO P2s. Sub-30k is tempting depending on the year.
This is painful. Anecdotal point: I have an 2024 EX40 and it’s been perfect.
For now.
Same experience here with a 2024 EX40, happy I did some research before buying (EX30 was looking nice at first). The EX40 is just another iteration of a mature platform, while the EX30/90 are new and still full of bugs apparently... It shows in the central console that looks dated but at least it works and I still have buttons for basic functionnality.
Similar experience with Polestar 3. Really great sales and client advisors, but truly an awful experience with the car. I demanded an early lease return and they accepted.
Sad to hear that about the PS3, seeing how long it took them to go to market.
Been driving a Polestar 2 for nearly 4 years now and while it’s not a disastrous experience it could be a lot better. Things have improved over the years, but still pretty disappointed.
The infotainment system runs on a very outdated atom chip that’s too slow for Android Automotive. Constant frame drops, crashes or stuff just generally not working.
In a recent software update they disabled the cockpit view if you put it in reverse, just to save on resources.
The whole Android Automotive thing is worthless. There are barely any apps and when they finally released YouTube after 2 years it was just a buggy wrapper around the mobile web view. Most videos will just display a green screen due to lack of codec support, so I just pull out my phone now when I’m charging. But even the radio or Spotify fail to play half of the time.
The 360 degree camera sometimes will just not work. I still have a tiny back window, unlike the Polestar 4, but the reverse lights are so tiny and dim that it’s impossible to see anything when reversing at night.
Digital Key works, but also have to regularly pull out my phone to trigger it or manually press the button in the app. If you’re in a parking garage without internet you’re simply not getting into the car. And that’s without the random logouts.
Lane assist works relatively well, if it weren’t for the constant nagging to put your hands on the wheel even if you’re lightly tugging it. I need to really jerk it a bit before it stops beeping at me, making it completely useless.
Maintenance happens at the Volvo dealership where they made sure to make me feel like a second class citizen for not leasing a Volvo. They didn’t read my reservation mentioning the broken rain sensor, ensuring I had to return a week later for them to replace it because they didn’t have the part in stock.
I was between a model 3 and this car initially. Mainly because of the software, and for that reason I still regret not going for the M3, but given the current situation I’m happier driving the PS2.
Nearly 4 years in the chipset is still the same for the newer model.
Oh believe me, model 3 is a piece of garbage. Mine started to creak after 20k miles. 2 months after repairs the car started to creak again. I am talking loud, embarassing creaks like old barn doors. Repair costs were so high my insurance company canceled. I will never ever own a Tesla again. Btw it's funny how people complain about auto pilot. At least you can disable auto pilot, making it the last problem to worry about with those trash cans.
Years ago I had bought a Volvo XC90 T5 (gas powered only). It had this stop/start feature when the car was stopped to help improve fuel economy (lots of cars have this now). Except mine wouldn't work. I took it into the dealership and the sales guy was surprised to see me there on my third or so visit. He advised making a stink with Volvo North America and sure enough after a few months and about two years or so after I bought the car they bought it back from me for my full purchase price - no depreciation.
That made me a solid Volvo buyer (I replaced that car with a newer XC90 T8 - a plug-in hybrid that I still have and is a great vehicle). That said, new versions of any product have issues sometimes but the loss of propulsion on the highway is extremely concerning. Hopefully Volvo comes through and irons this all out like they did for me.
$150kCAD for a discount Chinese car?
The better I become at system programming the more scared I become about current systems
>Find a place to stop and select P to park. When parked, the system will restart.
Oh I know how to fix this one. Format windows partition and install linux
Just a very tangential tanget: They added the Swedish phrase "Med vänliga hälsningar!" into the mail from Volvo Cars North America. Nothing else speaks of anyone speaking Swedish or anything, I found that a bit surprising.
I think I’ll never buy an electric car. They all have way too much more software than needed, most depend on touchscreens to access basic functionality, and I simply do not want that.
I have a 2010s VW, and I think it has the right amount of software. The screen has CarPlay, radio and some configurations, but 100% of the driving can be done without using it. Things like wipers, AC, cruise control, everything is manual. Yet the car even has the latest safety stuff like lane assist and BLIS.
Is there an EV out there with the same level of software? Can we essentially buy a 2019 Golf with the fuel tank gauge exchanged for a battery level indicator?
Our 2015 Passat is also like this, it's so... perfect. I juuust want to replace the drivetrain to electric!
Lovely site, and created by lovable.ai. You can even 'Remix' it here: https://lovable.dev/projects/64e17878-d0c5-49bd-a18b-39d3b93...
Shameless plug. My experience with emergency lane keeping systems in my car and reporting it to my dealership: https://www.smetj.net/its-for-your-own-safety.html
Which car was it?
Yes, I deliberately left that out for personal reasons. With a little sleuthing you should be able to figure out the brand.
It's difficult to trust anything that contains AI-generated content.
Could you elaborate please? Genuine question.
The image at the top of the article is obviously AI generated so it indicates that the rest of the article might be as well.
That is ridiculous. Having a hero image being AI (most people are crap with image editing) doesn't meant the rest of it is.
They didn't say "is" they said "might be," which is a reasonable assumption to make given how ubiquitous the use of AI has become. One has to assume all content one encounters online is at best AI assisted and at worst entirely AI generated unless some explicit statement to the contrary is made, and even then, one should doubt.
They are complaining about the hero image (which is pretty inoffensive). Which is ridiculous. It is no different than using a stock image asset for some decoration, which is what people would have used before the current AI tools. Therefore I consider it unreasonable on the face of it.
I shouldn't really have to explain this, but here we are.
I don't care about how you wish to split hairs because I made a minor mistake, nor do I care about your rationalisations for an obviously ridiculous critique.
Understood ... thanks for clarifying ... I'm genuinely intrigued. You're right that image is generated by a generative model, however my humble blog content .... I do write myself. "Don't judge a book by its cover!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The dude is being ridiculous. I use AI / Stock Photos for cover images. Plenty of people are fine with it.
Yikes. Hitting them where it hurts. Safe and predictable is Volvo's brand.
As a Polestar 2 (closely related to Volvo; they share a lot of components and infotainment software... bugs) owner, none of this surprises me.
I've had the "Complete Center Screen Malfunction" issue on my Polestar 2 (though an infotainment reboot "fixed" it.
But climate controls disappearing and climate shutting off during infotainment reboots is already pretty atrocious.
I have the "backup camera unavailable" issue, and despite multiple recalls and attempts to fix in software... the issue persists.
There are other issues, but none as bad as he's seen with his EX90!
These problems plague so many new cars it's incredible. I know people who don't want to buy a new Mercedes S-class, but are instead looking for low-mileage units of the previous generation because it has the same issues. I don't know what the fuck is going on with cars these last few years but the manufacturers need to wake up.
> climate shutting off
In general, climate shutting off is safety issue too. In -40C it is not many minutes until you can’t see through windows.
Recently test drove a used EX90 PHEV. I was shocked at how rough the transition from electric to ICE was. The owner said he never drove it in all-electric mode, just in hybrid mode (so the ICE is on all the time). We liked other aspects of the vehicle, but once we saw the vehicle history from the dealer, we knew it'd be thousands of dollars every year or two for repairs.
The EX90 is a new all-electric BEV released for the 2025 model year. Perhaps you drove an XC90 plug-in hybrid?
Ah yes, my mistake. And when I googled it, I saw many stories of HVAC issues that cost thousands to fix. If it happens under warranty, it's just the hassle of taking it in for service all the time. If it happens out of warranty, you're screwed.
I mean, the issues with this car are pretty well documented, so it feels like this person is really using the website (and the HN exposure, successfully), to extract the refund from Volvo that they need want. Likely rightfully so, since the ex90 subreddit is full of people invoking lemon law successfully.
I don't know. Apparently he's using a law firm to receive its refund. The HN exposure seems to be there just to ... expose the facts to the public. Looks more like a sort of revenge/public safety announcement to me (saying "don't buy Volvo").
Here's the url for that subreddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/VolvoEX90/
Edit: OMG!
It feels like Volvo is stuck in a sort of a cargo cult like situation. Modern car has to be software defined, so let's define the car by software. Except one of the reddit posts claims Volvo outsourced the development to Infosys. With predictable results...
Hardware companies outsourcing software development to dev shops is almost always an avoidable disaster, unfortunately.
Had a new Kia for the past five years and there were no issues apart from a speaker replaced under warranty. I cannot trust PSA, Renault, Stellantis or any other brands anymore. (Takata airbags) As for those flagships from renowned brands, it feels like a trend. I ‘did’ trust Volvo but won’t anymore. The way it was handled is particularly poor.
Shame, I hear the reviews say it's such a nice car. But looking at those screenshots I'll refuse to buy anything else until software matches Tesla. 90% of car features is software now and buying anything else than Tesla (or Rivian) is just asking for trouble.
Our leased 2024 Kia EV9 has similar terrible software problems.
Anyone who thinks Tesla's Autopilot/FSD (or any aspect of their software) is bad... much of the competition is far worse.
A few issues:
* Lane keeping gets dangerously close to other cars in turns for no apparent reason * Lane keeping will randomly decide to follow non-existent lanes * You can't turn off lane assist (the baby version of lane keeping) and it tries to override you, leading to jerking of the steering wheel at high speed (eg to avoid an obstacle in the road). * When switching from R to D it wants you to press the brake. But if you are still moving a tiny bit or you don't press the brake hard enough it just shifts you into N instead (!!). I live on a hill and this is only detected when I press the accelerator pedal and nothing happens. But you have to come to a full stop to shift into D (Why???). * Some settings refuse to save to driver profile; to get single pedal driving you must use the paddle shifters each driving session to go from iDrive 3 to Max. But if you are moving too fast it refuses to change the mode. If you set the mode in R it resets when you move to D. * Despite being an EV with key/digital key detection you must manually press the ON button and manually press the Off button. Otherwise when you get out of the car it just sits there ready to be driven away by a thief. * No auto-lock when walking away. * Remember the pedal thing from shifting? Same with pressing ON button. If you don't press the brake pedal down hard enough or give it 1-2 seconds before pressing ON it just turns on accessory mode. * No geofencing so no ability to configure anything to behave differently at home. * Want to control the charge plug locking behavior? Don't bother going to Settings. You won't find it. You must go to the home page, then press the EV Leaf box. Then go to EV Settings from here. There you will find a new settings menu that has the same ones from Settings but it now has a couple of new categories not present with all the other settings of the car. Including whether to lock the charge port door and whether to lock the charge cable into the car itself. * Sometimes in following cruise control mode it just locks in at a speed different from the one you set for no reason. * When you touch the accelerator in cruise it turns cruise off so when you let off the accelerator the car actually jerks you around as it decelerates for a period of time before cruise kicks back in lurching you forward. * Don't press the accelerator for too long or it will just turn cruise control off entirely, including lane keeping. * It wants your hands on the steering wheel but if you move too much it turns off lane keeping but leaves cruise control on. * It has the usual massive plethora of physical buttons randomly scattered throughout the cabin. Some on the center console. Some on the three stalks. Some on the left side where you can't see them. Some below the touch screen. * Different controls behave differently. Sometimes next to each other with similar functions! Opening the rear door? Press and hold. Open the frunk? Double tap the button. The buttons are next to each other. The buttons below the touch screen? Capacitive it seems. Why when the rest are physical? * Despite the cluster being just a huge LCD they do almost nothing with it. The only customizations are for-pay add-ons. * Did I mention the light-up squares on the front are customizable? If you pay for them. Each pattern is an add-on you pay for. * Their app is an absolute disaster. I could do an entire post just about how awful every aspect of it is.
We have all these problems with our EV9 and more. It's almost caused multple accidents. They should have to recall + crush 100% of these, or release a massive software overhaul as part of a recall.
Recently, it's started turning itself on when you get out of the driver seat, and sometimes the power windows decide to operate themselves. I'm guessing it's only going to get worse over time. (There was recently a big software update, and those two issues started after they pushed it out.)
I own a Kia EV6 and am generally happy with it (especially compared to most peoples' experiences with their EVs), but most of this is true.
The only one that really drives me nuts is the lane-keeping feature, which cannot even follow clearly marked lanes in broad daylight. I don't know that I've ever had it go for more than 15s without disengaging on its own, and forget following even a gentle curve.
Thanks for documenting your experience, I would not buy a Volvo ever.
I'm sorry, but if a car I ordered took over a year to be delivered and they couldn't even get the configuration correct I'd just say no.
This is the most beautiful complaint I've ever seen!
I’ve had similar issues with a 2023 Honda Civic and with a 2025 Audi A3.
I don’t think good cars exist anymore. All car software is shit.
Does Canada not have Lemon laws that force the company to take back the car after a certain number of defects?
Only Quebec has a specific "lemon law". Which this person appears to be in Quebec, so it may be applicable -- I'm not positive about the eligibility requirements to invoke it.
Sorry you have to deal with this, what a nightmare, hopefully you're able to get your money back.
I canceled my EX90 order after reading your post.
The last truly good volvo was manufactured around 1992. There are lots of them around still.
Geely has been terrible for Volvo. Geely took a quality brand and removed the quality.
Apparently writing reliable software is harder and more expensive than legacy car makers expected. VW finally figured this out and is paying Rivian $5billion to write their software, but AFAICT no other legacy car maker has accepted that software is kind of important in modern cars and not just a showroom afterthought like it was 10 years ago when car buyers routinely ignored the stupid screen in the dash and just used their phones for everything.
That crap won't cut it with EVs.
Ok. I'm starting to think that the touch displays should have a common interface codified into law. The fact that these interfaces, with no tactile feedback can be completely different softwares with UIs is alarming and dangerous to me.
Acknowledging that this dude is in Canada I still want to entertain the hypothetical of the current US Congress writing vehicle user interface statutes.
never buy a first or second year car, simple as, especially not a 'luxury' cutting edge brand.
Customer Support has become a battlefield it seems. Maybe it's always been but enshitification and lack of agency (and responsibility) by the customer support agents has made getting help when something goes wrong almost impossible everywhere. So now you need to create a social media shitstorm to force a reaction from the company above the normal lines of escalation. I think this is a terrible mistake from the companies.
Gotta fight that climate change, right? Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
Nice AI-generated site.
Volvo is owned by Geely from China - it exists in name only - another badge.
Volvo is still primarily Swedish.
https://www.gunthervolvocars.net/who-makes-volvo-cars.htm
The Volvo EX90 (in the article) is made in Charleston SC.
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>It has a technical failure.
It had many failures.
>They (rightly) won’t give it to you
How did you determine "rightly"? Do you have additional information that wasn't disclosed in the post?
Did you know that cars are meant to last far more than 1200km?
(I am just matching your stance)
I hope this site outlasts Volvo, and that this sign outlasts BoA
https://i.imgur.com/sxPpQIV_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=gra...
Elon, is this you?
Serious, is there evidence that this is happening an all EX90 models? And what does a lawyer say in such cases? Normally, $90,000 cars are leased. When does the special termination apply?
